The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

The highly anticipated second release in the Panzer Command series, featuring an updated engine and many major feature improvements. 3D Tactical turn-based WWII combat on the Eastern Front, with historical scenarios and campaigns as well as support for random generated battles and campaigns from 1941-1944.
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Deride
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Deride »

ORIGINAL: Mraah
I would like to see an Easter Egg of Ravinhood


Did we ever post out a list of the Easter Eggs in the various Koios Works games? Hmmm....

My favorite (which never did make the final release) was for Alexander. If you typed "ALEXANDERFORPRESIDENT" at the main menu, it played an audio clip saying: "We're gonna start in Macedonia, through Greece, across Babylon, into Egypt and all the way to India..... argggghgggrrrggghhhh." (Think Howard Dean.)

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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Hrmmm, yeah didn't think of that, building a pontoon bridge could take "hours" right? ;) What about maybe with some link to the campaign in that same day like Stridor said could happen? Thus the initial battle is to give the engineers time to build the bridge, but, of course there could still be action trying to prevent them from doing so throughout the campaign???

Having been a combat engineer, in an armored division, I can shed some light on the activities engineers preform and the time tables for a tactical level game.

Engineer Construction Tasks:

Bridges:
It takes hours to build any kind of a bridge. In the first place the bridging equipment has to be in the right spot at the right time. Sometimes it was. In a battle where you were going to simulate that it would be.

The larger the traffic for the bridge the longer it takes. Even an infantry foot bridge takes hours to construct under normal circumstances. Meaning a Divisional Engineer unit and not being backed up by Corps or Army level units.


Minefields:
It takes hours to put in or breach minefields. Not a hasty 5 mine field, but any deliberate field will take ALOT of time.

Most engineer actions take place between friendly and enemy lines. Minefields are no exception. They are full of explosives and often have antihandling devices attached. You don't place or remove them quickly.

Think about laying on your stomach and probing the ground gently with a probe of some kind and hoping that your actions don't explode a mine in your face.

Wire Fence:
Wire fence is a bit different. Still normally placed between the two forces but can be put up much quicker because it isn't loaded with explosives. The construction of even a small amount of wire fence would take in the range of hours though. It is usually put up in sections over a number of nights.

Abatis:
The use of trees to obstruct a road can be done within a span of a few minutes if the explosives are on hand. There is a preferred way to do it that takes a bit of time. But to just blow trees down in the road would no less than slow tanks. That could be done with any engineer unit in an forest area in minutes.

Antitank ditches.
Antitank ditches take days and weeks to construct. They were very hard to make in WWII. Even today can take alot of time for a divisional sized unit to create.

Engineer Demolition Tasks:


Blowing up bridges that haven't been prepared is as difficult as the construction of the bridge. If they are made of wood they are easy and could be done in a few minutes. If they are a class 60 stone bridge...meaning it would support a King Tiger they are going to take hours.

Breaching minefields. Hasty minefields, those with just a few mines and primarily laid on the top of the ground a few minutes. A deliberate minefield where they have been placed in the ground and camouflaged more than an hour...probably much more than an hour.

Breaching wire obstacles. With engineer units with demolition capability not hard. Tracked vehicles would also breach wire obstacles with little problems except taking the chance of fouling the wire in the tracks.

Breaching abatis/road blocks. Very time consuming. Sometimes tanks would fire to remove road blocks. But they pretty much won't remove trees from the road. Only lots of manpower and time will do that. Depending on the number of trees you can easily figure half an hour per tree at best.


River Assault:

Very little time prepare and only the boats need to be present.

As you said RH some of these could be available in battles and all could very likely be available for campaigns.

Good Hunting.

MR



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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

I would like to see an improved model for spotting. That would include better all round vision for any tanks with command cupolas. Full 360 degree spotting for any vehicle with a crew that is open topped.

For the vehicles with turrets that include MGs in facing to the rear the same spotting modifiers as those for the front of the tank.

The spotting modiers should be standard for most tanks based on the number of crew members they have and where they are sitting. Most non-forward arc spotting would have to be done by the commander. If the tank was in combat then the spotting modifiers should go down as most of the crew members are busy fighting and not looking around.

IF PC does night combat I would like to see some actual night fighting effects instead of just a darkened map and shorter vision ranges. There needs to be varying degrees of light from pitch black to almost daylight. There needs to be starshells and a fire illumination radius for any fires on the map. Muzzle flash identification...no positive ID on enemy vehicles or even friendly vehicles that are not very close to other friendlies.



Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by ravinhood »

Oh yeah starshells and flares in a night battle would be keen. /signed lol all this extra work we want Erik to do. hahahaha
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I would like to see an improved model for spotting. That would include better all round vision for any tanks with command cupolas. Full 360 degree spotting for any vehicle with a crew that is open topped.

FYI, tanks with cupolas do get a spotting bonus, but the 360 degree spotting is what tanks currently do not have.
The spotting modiers should be standard for most tanks based on the number of crew members they have and where they are sitting. Most non-forward arc spotting would have to be done by the commander. If the tank was in combat then the spotting modifiers should go down as most of the crew members are busy fighting and not looking around.

Some interesting ideas. We'll take another look at this for the next release.
IF PC does night combat I would like to see some actual night fighting effects instead of just a darkened map and shorter vision ranges. There needs to be varying degrees of light from pitch black to almost daylight. There needs to be starshells and a fire illumination radius for any fires on the map. Muzzle flash identification...no positive ID on enemy vehicles or even friendly vehicles that are not very close to other friendlies.

I agree.

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- Erik
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I would like to see an improved model for spotting. That would include better all round vision for any tanks with command cupolas. Full 360 degree spotting for any vehicle with a crew that is open topped.
I like the idea submitted by Mraah better. That is range based.
Now, if we started looking at where and when a crew was looking the sighting model would have to be changed to probability based. If when an enemy target fired or moved at a certain angle from the tank was the TC looking there or was he looking somewhere else? How much time was each observer spent looking in that direction? If the TC is looking for what's behind him he isn't looking out the front.
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by ravinhood »

Friendly Fire? Is that modeled?
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I would like to see an improved model for spotting. That would include better all round vision for any tanks with command cupolas. Full 360 degree spotting for any vehicle with a crew that is open topped.
I like the idea submitted by Mraah better. That is range based.
Now, if we started looking at where and when a crew was looking the sighting model would have to be changed to probability based. If when an enemy target fired or moved at a certain angle from the tank was the TC looking there or was he looking somewhere else? How much time was each observer spent looking in that direction? If the TC is looking for what's behind him he isn't looking out the front.

[/quote]


His idea is much simpler. We are talking only in terms of what happens in a buttoned up vehicle. How many men can look forward? In an 5 man crew all 5. How many of the 5 man crew can look back? More than likely only the commander.

Result...5 times more likelyhood of being seen in front of a tank compared to behind one. But your model had zero percent chance of spotting to the rear. I like either of the models we're discussing better than that.

Now, I realize just how hard it is to put all this together. I'm in the slightest saying that I think the game should be perfect. I'm just saying that there are some basic improvements that might be made.

I would like to actually see the game first BEFORE I start making comments on what I want changed though.

My initial comment was in response to another comment made. Not a criticism.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mraah »

Mobius and MR,

Thank you both for an interest in the idea.

Here is a totally different way to do it without too much of a change to current PC design.
The turret would provide a BONUS modifier based on which direction the turret faces.

See attached photo.

Red # = Base Sighting Distance
Blue # = Positive Turret Modifier

Note : You can see the BASE DISTANCE for a turretted afv is lower in the front and non-existance to the rear. The turret makes up for the loss.
Simply add the base and the bonus modifier to get the new base value dependant of the turret facing.

Also note, the values aren't written in stone and reflect an AFV in an unbottoned/stationary position.
And, you can add another +100m modifier for turrets with a copula.

Any thoughts?
Thanks for listening.
Rob



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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

Depends on how detailed you want the spotting in PC to be.

They could be setup for entire classes of AFV's or just made very general.

Entire classes would be like:

Open topped.
Tanks with command cupolas.
Tanks with MG's in the turret rear.
2 man crews.
3 man crews.
4 man crews.
5 man crews.
6 man crews.
11 man crews.
Turret facing.
German optics.
The Nashorn.

Or it could simply be set to the kind of overall percentages that PC seems to have at the moment with the expanded view cones you have proposed.

While Mobius' comment about not knowing what percentage of the time a crewman will be looking in a particular direction has some merit, it also ignored the fact that most AFV's had some way of viewing the world around them.

That while the gunner will look in the direction of the gun, the driver in the direction of the travel, the loader in no direction, the TC could usually look in all directions. A tank just moving through open country would "see" differently than a tank in combat where everyone in the tank is busy and the job of spotting would fall to the TC and gunner.

During combat, with a 2 man crew, this would make them virtually blind. With a 5 man crew they would be restricted but not totally. 2 men of the crew would be constantly looking for and engaging targets at all times.

A secondary consideration is that the gunners optics were very instrumental in what he could see. Some nations optics were better than other nations. The Nashorn had the best optics of any AFV in the war and should be in a class by itself. That should also apply to the Nashorn in the ability to hit it's targets for the exact same reason.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

Why would an open topped vehicle see better in front of it than it would to the sides and rear?

To fire on a target two things must happen; the spotting unit must be able to see where the target is and it must recognize the target as a threat.

Your chart attempts to identify how far the spotter the spotter can see. But not what it sees. If viewing the surrounding terrain from inside the tank through vision slits the viewing distance will be the same in all directions. The sole exception to this would be the gunners optics.

The identification of an enemy unit as a threat would depend on cover and concealment. The more eyes you have looking in a particular direction ups your chances that you identify the threat. It doesn't guarantee that you will identify it. It just increases your chances.

On the other side of the coin, a unit in cover and concealment should have a good chance of not being discovered until it opens fire and depending on it's cover and concealment maybe not even then. That's why AT guns, tanks, etc...would put brush, grass, tree limbs...anything they could to give them the concealment to allow them to stay undetected by the enemy.

The three functions of combat are all of about equal importance.

Spotting:
What you can't see you can't fire at. In most situations in WWII and later, what you can see you can hit and what you can hit you can kill.

To Hit:
The chance that once you fire at a target that you hit it.

Weapons Effectiveness:
The ability of the weapon system you are firing with to affect the target in your favor. In simple terms to disrupt the combat effectiveness of the unit or to kill it.


Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mraah »



I was thinking they could add the sight value modifiers to a vehicle's own XML file. This would allow it to vary between the types of vehicles.

I've forgotten MR, whether you have a copy of PCOWS because in the manual it gives other modifiers based on the sighting unit's activity. If you have the demo I don't remember if it has a manual or not. Otherwise, you can go to the panzer-war website and download the tables zip and on page 2 it has the sight calculator and the modifiers, although different values from the manual (manual shows meters) it appears relatively the same as PCOWS.

It appears that the base sighting distance is fixed and represents a lower value not because they wouldn't see farther in one direction compared to another but it seems to reflect how much time or attention would be given to a particular area based on their activity etc.

I don't know. I enjoy your inputs because I believe you mentioned you were in the army assigned to tanks so if anybody here would know what's going inside of a tank and sighting arcs, that would be you.

Rob
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Mraah



I was thinking they could add the sight value modifiers to a vehicle's own XML file. This would allow it to vary between the types of vehicles.

I've forgotten MR, whether you have a copy of PCOWS because in the manual it gives other modifiers based on the sighting unit's activity. If you have the demo I don't remember if it has a manual or not. Otherwise, you can go to the panzer-war website and download the tables zip and on page 2 it has the sight calculator and the modifiers, although different values from the manual (manual shows meters) it appears relatively the same as PCOWS.

I just got PCOWS loaded onto my computer last night. I've not had time to go through the manual yet. That's on my immediate list of things to do. However, I have a CM tournament that I'm running and have to do playtesting and scenario design there before I get too carried away with PC.
It appears that the base sighting distance is fixed and represents a lower value not because they wouldn't see farther in one direction compared to another but it seems to reflect how much time or attention would be given to a particular area based on their activity etc.

That was the basis for my first set of comments about what the crew members were going to be doing and who was doing what. The number of crew men makes a difference as to the ability to spot the enemy.

The level of activity also affects their spotting ability.

And to be truthful, while a tank crew CAN see behind them they rarely look behind them. They are expecting for the most part for their rear to be secure. There are exceptions to that of course.
I don't know. I enjoy your inputs because I believe you mentioned you were in the army assigned to tanks so if anybody here would know what's going inside of a tank and sighting arcs, that would be you.

Rob

I was a combat engineer assigned to the 3rd Armored Division. At the time we spent a tremendous amount of time learning how to kill Soviet tanks. Where the blind spots were and how to get in close to a tank. An armored engineer bn has 4 "tanks", what we called CEV's. (Combat Engineer Vehicles.) These were tanks but very specialized.

I was often in US tanks. M60A1's, M60A2's and M60A3's. I have been in the Leopard I and also the British Chieftan.

I have also been in the T-54/55 and T-62 as well as the BMP. These were given to the US Army from Israel. Captured in the 73 War.

For the most part Soviet doctrine was for their tanks to fight buttoned up and on the move. I think that has alot of bearing on this discussion. There are those that may disagree.

So, while I wasn't a tanker I was in an Armored Division and was trained to take advantage of a tanks blind spots. We spent alot of time in the field on maneuvers to perfect our skills.

Minefields, abatis, antitank ditches were all used to put tank units in a kill zone. More often than not they were used in combination.

All obstacles were to be kept under observation and fire at all times. No unmanned obstacles that the enemy could dismantle at his leisure.

Hope this helps.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

It may be time to move this out of RH's wish list thread if the discussion needs to go further. We are taking alot of room up for a single ongoing topic.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

Back to the wish list....

How difficult would it be to show where a unit could setup during the initial setup phase?

Gray in the area it could be moved to. That would save time in trying to put it down in an area the game won't allow it into.

Does PCK have the ability to put less than full strength platoons in the game? What if a battle only had 2 PzIVH's and not an entire platoon of 3? Can I do that?

What about vehicles that start the game immobilized. Lots of actions happened where vehicles were out of fuel or under repair. It would be nice to show that in a battle in PC as well.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Does PCK have the ability to put less than full strength platoons in the game? What if a battle only had 2 PzIVH's and not an entire platoon of 3? Can I do that?
That's done in the scenario design. You can set the max number of the platoon then the current number. The points total will be for the current number. If the scenario gives extra points they can be used to buy more individuals of a platoon during the initial buy phase during play.
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mad Russian »

I would REALLY  like to see some kind of way to actually SEE the flags on the small map so I know where to find them on the larger map. Make them a bright yellow dot or something that I can tell where they are.

After not thinking they were there in the demo I've found them but they are hard to locate and to know where the objectives are. On the larger map they are so small as to make you believe they aren't important. On an actual commanders map he clearly marks what his objectives are. I'm having troubles with that in PC.

Good Hunting.

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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Stridor »

MR I have fixed up the flags for you, is this any better?

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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by junk2drive »

How they gonna look on the snow maps that MR has?
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RE: The Inevitable Official UnOffical Wish List

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I would REALLY  like to see some kind of way to actually SEE the flags on the small map so I know where to find them on the larger map. Make them a bright yellow dot or something that I can tell where they are.
I see them on my mini-maps.



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