waw v33

[JAMiAM]

The problem with the way that the fighters are all lumped together (for those who are unhappy with one restriction or the other) is that the load-out for a P-51d flying bomber escort to Berlin is much different from one that might be tasked with ground support. However, the engine is unable to enforce those restrictions without some compromise unless you break out different SFT's for every conceivable fighter/task combination. So, it makes sense to allow a P-51d to fly escort to Berlin, from East Anglia, but it makes no sense to allow it to strafe/bomb ground targets while it's there. Unless you break out long-ranged escorts from your general purpose fighter SFT's and make them specific to the task, by "solving" one problem, you create another.

I would say that the class of long-range escorts should sacrifice ground/naval attack capability for their range increases. Of course, with the increasing task-oriented sub-divisioning of the SFT's will come an increase in micromanagement and complexity. There is a fine line we should tread to not bury the relatively simple elegance of AT under too much chrome, while maintaining a reasonably plausible simulation.

[IRONCROM]

Strafing and fighter sweeps over germany was one of the primary missions for long range fighters after bomber escort. In some theaturs of the war like the pacific it was the primary focus.

[von altair]

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM

Strafing and fighter sweeps over germany was one of the primary missions for long range fighters after bomber escort. In some theaturs of the war like the pacific it was the primary focus.

My personal opinnion about long range fighters is, that we need one, but with
a high cost. I prefer the same style to handle it than artillery and heavy bombers will
be taken care of. Normal interceptors will be like they are, but then there will be
long range fighters like ME-110 and P-51d etc. with high cost.

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM

Strafing and fighter sweeps over germany was one of the primary missions for long range fighters after bomber escort. In some theaturs of the war like the pacific it was the primary focus.

Yes, but general orders of expend your ammo on targets of opportunity while coming back is much different than an order to bomb German positions in Berlin. A long-range fighter escort is not the type of plane that would be tasked to the second mission. It makes sense to allow them full strength against air targets, but not against ground targets.

[von altair]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM

Strafing and fighter sweeps over germany was one of the primary missions for long range fighters after bomber escort. In some theaturs of the war like the pacific it was the primary focus.

Yes, but general orders of expend your ammo on targets of opportunity while coming back is much different than an order to bomb German positions in Berlin. A long-range fighter escort is not the type of plane that would be tasked to the second mission. It makes sense to allow them full strength against air targets, but not against ground targets.

Yeah, thats what I think as well.

[IRONCROM]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


Yes, but general orders of expend your ammo on targets of opportunity while coming back is much different than an order to bomb German positions in Berlin. A long-range fighter escort is not the type of plane that would be tasked to the second mission. It makes sense to allow them full strength against air targets, but not against ground targets.

Yes i do see some argument for this. But fighters already have the weakest ground attack ability.

Long range fighters were also sent out on fighter sweeps over germany will the sole purpose of strafing and finding German fighter to pick a fight with.( they weren't exclusive escorters)

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


Yes, but general orders of expend your ammo on targets of opportunity while coming back is much different than an order to bomb German positions in Berlin. A long-range fighter escort is not the type of plane that would be tasked to the second mission. It makes sense to allow them full strength against air targets, but not against ground targets.

Yes i do see some argument for this. But fighters already have the weakest ground attack ability.

Yes, but it is still quite strong, especially against infantry type targets.

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM
Long range fighters were also sent out on fighter sweeps over germany will the sole purpose of strafing and finding German fighter to pick a fight with.( they weren't exclusive escorters)

And you can accomplish the same thing by flying recon missions with them in areas where you expect fighter resistance.

[IRONCROM]

ORIGINAL: IRONCROM
Long range fighters were also sent out on fighter sweeps over germany will the sole purpose of strafing and finding German fighter to pick a fight with.( they weren't exclusive escorters)

And you can accomplish the same thing by flying recon missions with them in areas where you expect fighter resistance.


[/quote]
Yes it does as far as engaging enemy air units goes. But if they have no ground attack ability then it will not model the ability to sfrafe. Allied fighters were constantly strafing German troops as the war progressed and they increasingly had greater control of the skies. Overall I don't think long range fighters were any less effective at strafing than short range ones were. If you weaken ones ability to attack ground targets then you have to weaken both.
IMHO

That doesn't mean I am for a weaker grond attack for fighters.

[tweber]

Just added waw33c.  Here I add:
 
- Lg Rng Fighter and Lg Rng Fighter II.  These are level 3 and 4 fighters with range of the Heavy Bomber and that fighter like level 2 and 3 fighter respectively.
- Long range artillery.  Range of 2 but half the artillery power of it's counterpart.  Available at all 4 tech levels.

[IRONCROM]

That's a good compromise. I'm totally satisfied.

[SMK-at-work]

I still think a beter fix would be to have long range fighter as a type that parallels normal fighters but is more expensive, so you get to choose which you buy.  There was no particular technology involved in creating them - just how you arranged the internal aircraft structure to accomodate fuel tanks!

IMO Fighter bombers are probably best addressed by giving high tech fighters similar ground attack to lower tech dive-bombers - they should ideally have somewhat shorter range in the ground attack role, since it usualy involved external stores in place of external fuel tanks.  Presumably fighters do not attack cites, etc when you do strategic attacks, so they will fight as pure fighters in that role at least.

Zeros had enourmously long range but are only lvl 2 naval.....

[tweber]

The long range fighter does parrallel the normal fighter, only starting at tech level 3. 

At that point, you can buy either.  For the same ammount, you can buy a better short range fighter or an inferior long range fighter.  I wanted to keep the price 2000 for both because all the production sites are in multiples of 2000.

Feel free to add additional units if desired.

[explorer2]

I just recently started my first WaW game, v32a2.
If I upgrade to 33c, will I be able to continue my current game, but with all the 33 adjustments, or would I have to start a new game from the beginning with 33c?
Thanks for a GREAT scenario and I'm impressed how quickly Tom is making adjustments.

[tweber]

Once you start a game, the version is frozen so you would have to restart.

[SMK-at-work]

Ah - of course...I forgot the groupings in WaW...despite playing it constantly for ages!! [&o]

How is the long range fighter inferior?  I suspect it should probably only be inferior in ground attack - it's true the USAAF escorts were told to use up all their ammo on ground targets if they could - but they didn't carry heavy air-ground-weapons so their effect was limited - they should probably only get hte same ground attack as level 1 ordinary fighters.

[seille]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

The problem with the way that the fighters are all lumped together

That´s true of course. But until a guy comes and creates a complete unit set with the most common plane types
this is a better solution than simply forbid the player to fly attacks that should be possible with late war tech level.
And at least the west was able to attack Berlin WITH escorts.

A solution for more realistic unit setup would be what i did some time ago.
Breaking up the generic set completely and create own sftypes and itemtypes for each regime.

Means a lot of work, but you could be more special with sftype setup, so the west could have the only long range fighter,
but Germany would have the strongest fighters. You could incorporate the good and weak points for the plane types per
regime. Same for tanks or artillery of course. But that´s a terrible work.
The good thing is that you can make the sftypes slower/faster or cheaper/more expensive per regime.
Or simply give the russian medium tank more hitpoints than the german

What Tom did with the new special units, but for the complete unit set. I did that for russia and Germany (just splitting up
sftypes and itemtypes) and it´s a lot of work.

@Tom
I think the long range fighters you created are a good compromise.

[bwheatley]

yay!

[bbragnar]

I'm having a problem with WaW v33. There comes up an arithmetic error exception problem during the AI's turn. I have not had any problems with previous versions.

[JAMiAM]

Hi,

I noticed that somewhere down the line, the rising production option became deselected by default in version 33c. This should be selected by default, as this is the option which allows for the increased production multipliers starting in 1942, and all of the PP grants, that occur in a gradiated format for the five powers. If somebody starts a game of 33c, it would be a good idea to remember to select this option before playing.

[zook08]

Two questions about an ongoing v32xx game:

What's the use of the "Allies abandon Paris" card?

The Germans attacked France without the Blitz or declaring war on the Allied Minors. They won in France and declared Vichy. They own previously neutral Amsterdam now (I don't know if they captured it or got it for free), so I'd guess they are at war with the Minors. But the Minors didn't join me. Is there something wrong?