WaR mapping - behind the scenes

[RD Oddball]

[:D] Only 2 million tiles.  1 million is too many!  We can't overstate just how significant the map coding effort was.  Talk about grunt work!  The reason the maps are playable but little or no recognition.  It reminds me playing offensive line in football.
 
Nietsche - Thanks for the comments.  Yeah automation requires extreme caution and care lest they all become cookie cutter designs and loose their artistic flavor.  The human element would always be necessary to preserve that.  Worth repeating tho.  Thanks!
 
Re: your comment about who to do the work for and listen to - Well put!
 
Not sure about the comments about Hotton.  I have an HP w2207h and many maps display in proper proportions but sometimes just occupy a swath down the center.  i.e. no scrolling left to right.  Sure the extra real estate could be used.  Often tho there's a reason behind the map proportions.  i.e. creating bottlenecks, narrowing the east west front if attacking north or south or vice versa., etc.  Does the map display properly for you?  If not I'd suggest adjusting the ingame resolution to fit your screen.  Just in case you're new enough to CC that you don't know how to do that:  If you go to game options or F8 the options dialog will appear and you'll need to click the "General" tab.  On that menu you'll see a drop down menu next to "screen resolution".  Find your monitor size and click it then ok.  You'll need to restart for the settings to take effect.  That screen resolution only controls the resolution on the tactical maps, NOT the UI.  The UI will always display at 1024x768.  On my monitor if I have the screen resolution set to anything below 1050x1680 the maps will be force fit to my monitor screen thus throwing them out of proportion.  i.e. they look stretched one direction or the other depending on what the narrowest direction of the map is.  Let me know if that works.

[CSO_Talorgan]

Is Google SketchUp an option for those of us who can't draw?!

[RD Oddball]

It could be.  It would make doing shadows easier and provide decent elevation modelling as well as pre-made components once a catalog of models was created.  Would take a lot of work to develop it as a mapping tool for CC.  Importing all the textures and properly scaling them, the stuff I mentioned above.  But it could work if someone wanted to take the time to do the set up work. 
 
Frankly any 3D program could be made to do this and there was a guy posting images at CCS that were CC2 maps turned into 3D maps.  Pretty cool idea.  I think your suggestion of Google SketchUp might be the most accessible option for many wanting to do maps with a 3D program and easiest to use.  Most other 3D progs are cost prohibitive or overkill. GSU might work nicely.

[pelle75]

Blender 3D would be my choice (free, not tied to any specific platform, no high requirements on hardware). Requires a few hours with tutorials to figure out the ui. Easy to extend with scripts for common tasks. They recently demonstrated it can be used to create character and level models for 3D platform games.

[CSO_Talorgan]

Didn't know that Blender could be used to create landscapes.

[pelle75]

There are some examples of landscapes included in that free game I linked to (each level is a big landscape model).

Here are some more examples:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D ... ic_Terrain
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D ... Stenciling

Haven't played with that in a long time. I think there is some other tutorial somewhere for how to import heightmap bitmap data from an image instead of using the manual tools to shape the landscape.

[berndn]

Thanks pellen for the links. Interesting.
Instead of the usual 2D vs 3D debate of the CC series it gives a nice idea of maybe using stuff like Blender, which is free, and use this to create the 3D landscape before generating the height map coordinates from it instead of using a grey scale bitmap which is used to generate the height info if I'm understanding the procedure of map generating in CC. Interesting stuff and worth an own thread IMO.

[RD Oddball]

Yeah exactly berndn.  Nothing says ya can't take advantage of whatever tools are available to achieve the goal.  i.e. converting 3D generated maps/elevation files into 2D for the game.
 
Thanks for the links Pellen.

[Southernland]

Thanks for the tute links.   I've got blendor installed and as with most of my ideas thats as far as I got.  I'll have to crank it open and have a play.  My one concern is the ability to create a rough terrain like the current crop of cc maps use. ie keeping up the pixel definition I guess you'd call it rather than having the smeared blurred mess that seems to be the norm of many 3d generated maps where the texture is stretched over the 3d profile.
 
as a side note there was a freeware (i think) terrain generator linked from one of the ads on the CCS site.   One again I think I grabbed it and that was as far as I got.

[berndn]

My idea would be to create the basic map in 3D so that you can measure heights etc very well. Write an export filter to have the heights map. Then use the top view and make a bitmap. If you wish with only a screenshot. Use this screenshot as a background layer and paint the map with this info like you did before.
The only real advantage would be to have at least the heights right.

Are the houses painted from scratch in good ol CC ? I ask because it would be great to find a simpler way to create the right 'LOS' information like it is now. Some houses you can shot through.

It's just some ideas [:)]

[Southernland]

Yeah the ol' shooting through a house dilemma.  I suspect that comes from the limitations imposed by the game and coding issues.   Certainly adding coded interior walls to buildings helps negate the 'billy the kid' effect.  Back in cc3 you could add interior walls and doors and even furniture as coded items and I think some of the larger interior coding elements (like factory floor) had a build in LOS impediment too.
 
I've had this discussion before but if you look at you shooting through a house situations they're always tank vs tank.   I think how the game works... the tank shooting fires from one pixel, and at a certain distance from a building with windows there is a narow arc through which it can "see" and fire... now if an enemy tank is perpendictular to that line it stands a chance of being seen and eventually hit, often without chqance of reply

[Moss Orleni]

ORIGINAL: Southern_land

Yeah the ol' shooting through a house dilemma.  I suspect that comes from the limitations imposed by the game and coding issues.   Certainly adding coded interior walls to buildings helps negate the 'billy the kid' effect.  Back in cc3 you could add interior walls and doors and even furniture as coded items and I think some of the larger interior coding elements (like factory floor) had a build in LOS impediment too.

I've had this discussion before but if you look at you shooting through a house situations they're always tank vs tank.   I think how the game works... the tank shooting fires from one pixel, and at a certain distance from a building with windows there is a narow arc through which it can "see" and fire... now if an enemy tank is perpendictular to that line it stands a chance of being seen and eventually hit, often without chqance of reply

We saw this happening only a couple of days ago...
Setting: the Stavelot map, the big building in the north near the Amblève. An M-36 in ambush position on the western side of the building, right next to the wall; a Panther working his way up the little road from the northeast, suddenly spotting the tank destroyer and putting him away with a flank shot. All this while the Panther was not even adjacent to the eastern wall, it spotted the M-36 through a small patch of open terrain, the factory interior and 2 factory windows. The Jackson never even saw the Panther (which I promptly renamed 'eagle-eyed Ernst' [:D]...

Makes me wonder: the sighting principle you explain, doesn't it also illustrates why LOS is not always reciprocal? If sighting originates from one pixel, but vehicular size (or object size, whichever is used to determine LOS) is larger than one pixel, than you should see this 1-way LOS thing happen...

On a related note, a question for Southern_land, or any of the map coders/data experts: is there a possibility for vehicles to go in hull defilade behind a low obstacle or behind the crest of a ridge/elevation? I mean, does the game allow for only the turret to be seen and/or hit, or is the vehicle always spotted as a whole?

Cheers,
Moss

[Pvt_Grunt]

ORIGINAL: Moss Orleni

On a related note, a question for Southern_land, or any of the map coders/data experts: is there a possibility for vehicles to go in hull defilade behind a low obstacle or behind the crest of a ridge/elevation? I mean, does the game allow for only the turret to be seen and/or hit, or is the vehicle always spotted as a whole?

Cheers,
Moss

MickXe5 did a demonstration of it at CSO. He made a simple green map with a wall of varying heights , put tanks behind it and played. CSO is down now so I cant search for it. I dont remember the results, it was a few years ago.

[Moss Orleni]

Thanks for that info Pvt_Grunt, I'm very interested in seeing that CSO thread.

AFAIK, vehicles do not have a 'height' property (unless indirectly via vehicular size or object size), so I really wonder how the game engine copes with it (fi how is the hit chance affected?)
Knowing how to use hull defilade IMO would be a considerable advantage...

Cheers,
Moss

[CSO_Talorgan]

Is Google SketchUp an option for those of us who can't draw?!

As I have mentioned over at the CCS, this approach has hit a snag in that SketchUp's Sandbox tools are not available on the free version. I'll now have to swot up on Blender.

[Platoon_Michael]

If interested I still have a file on the ccs ftp site that has many textures for maps.
It's called textures 2


http://www.closecombatseries.net/platoon_michael/

Edit:
I really like the shadding of the sun light on Krinklet.
And the covered bunkers on the new WAR maps.

[RD Oddball]

Talorgan with respect to SketchUp does that mean you can't use it at all or that you just can't create textures within it?  Sort of sounds like you have to have your textures made before putting things together in SketchUp. 
 
Thanks for posting the texture links Michael.  I made Krinkelt based on some extensive research by Neil.  He has a book with many ground level shots, detailed maps, accounts, etc..  So according to those maps and pics it's an exact copy of the town pretty much.  The shading was from some elevation models I'd found of the area turned into 2D representation.  Re: covered bunkers - thanks.

[Southernland]

Ok here's my guessimation of the snapshot through a house (or other cover) I Don't know if this is true but based on what I've seen it makes sense. Ninety percent of the time it is the tank closer to the building that is able to get the snapshot away, this makes sense as the angle out of the building it can 'see would be greater. Also I've never seen infantry shoot through a building, i think this is because of the multiple wepons deployed with scattered troops, the computer can't make the decision where the LOS is ...


The following is a rough pic a sherman shooting at a JTiger. The sherman is closer to the building and can draw bead through two windows --green line-- (no interior walls coded) while the Jtiger is slightly ofset and it;s LOS --red line-- intersects the wall tile of the building

As i say I'm not sure about this but it seems to fit what I've seeing while playing CC

[Andrew Williams]

Columns AB and AC of the elements.txtare Block LOS  and Block All LOS


Walls are set to Block LOS (AB)  but not ALL LOS (AC)... this is so defending troops can use the wall as cover and fire through it.

So this explains exactly what you are seeing Southern_Land.


Now, thinking out loud.... if the walls are coded to not block adjacent LOS (AC)  but this , seemingly and debatably, adversely effects tanks.

Should a row of impassable to vehicle elements be coded around each building to avoid this sort of behaviour... will that remove most instances of this behaviour?

[Andrew Williams]

Thinking out loud MkII

Should all buildings be painted larger so that interior walls can be coded in and still leave enough room for doorways and rooms big enough to hold a squad.