Item for Estab list

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Original: simovitch
No worries, I'll modify the COTA estabs as suggested here and slip the update into the BFTB data Content folder when Dave isn't looking. [;)]

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?

Under the German estabs, there's an entry for a brigade:

1m-hr.pzd-Schuetzen Bde HQ

But, there's no base unit included for that level.

Hi all,

Wasn't there mention of a need for non-motorized UK & CW infantry units as well?? To simulate Imperial troops from India I believe...........

Thanks Richard! [:)]

Rob.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: simovitch

1. Add Motorized CW and ANZAC Bde and Div HQ's
2. Change 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-15cm how to 1m-hr.pzd-Mot Mdm Arty Bty-10.5cm how

Anything else?

While we're at it, what about some French units? I can't create 1940 French forces with the current "Free French" estabs. There are no French tanks, like the "H35", "R35" or "S35" etc.

I found some good french OOBs, but I'd need french arty, LMGs/HMGs, mortars, light division units, 25mm anti-tank guns, armored (recon) cars (i.e. AMD 35 "Panhard 178") and french tanks. That source even lists armor penetration values for their guns (IG, FH, cars, tanks). I could use the british estabs for AA units (i.e. hotchkiss) and other "borrowed" equipment.

I'd like to create a fictional Saarland scenario (where the French army attacks instead of stopping after moving 8km into Germany just to put their fingers in their noses to fight a "phoney war" [:D]), and I want to convert my Cologne scenario for COTA (with the French forces + the BEF attacking this time).

I'd appreciate some help. [:)]

[GoodGuy]

*BUMP*

[Arjuna]

GoodGuy,
 
We're very busy right now focusing on BFTB. I'm sorry but any significant estab changes for COTA will have to wait till after BFTB is out. Please remind us then and we'll look into this matter then.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

GoodGuy,

We're very busy right now focusing on BFTB. I'm sorry but any significant estab changes for COTA will have to wait till after BFTB is out. Please remind us then and we'll look into this matter then.

My bad. I meant to say BFTB.
Ok, but this makes me wonder now. Can you tell us what estabs are going to be included in BFTB? I'm asking because Simo or you stated that HTTR estabs will make it in there for sure, so I'm wondering if COTA estabs are going to be included as well?
If so, only a relatively small change (we're talking about 16 units only, 3 diff tank coys {3 diff models} included) to the BFTB estab package would be necessary...
For France/Germany 1940/41 scenarios:

foot:
• INF coy
• INF HQ coy
• INF mortar coy
• INF base unit

motorized:
• mot. INF coy
• mot. INF HQ coy
• mot. INF base unit
• mot. INF arty unit
• tank HQ unit
• tank coy (R35, H35, S35)
• armored car coy (Panhard 178)
• mot. 25mm AT coy
• mot. FH 18 reg (arty)
• mot. IG 18 coy

The rest can be created using british equipment (existing estabs).

That would be cool ! Give us some candy ! [&o]

[Arjuna]

GoodGuy,
 
BFTB will not include the COTA estabs but it will include sufficient estabs to cover HTTR. 
 
Re Estabs for France 1940. We will review matters after BFTB is out. One option might be to release a COTA v2 and a France 1940 expansion pack for it. Nothing has been decided on yet and I don't want get involved in a discussion about that now. I need to focus on getting BFTB out the door.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

It appears that the Panzer III Ausf. G has been left out of the CotA estabs.

Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

It appears that the Panzer III Ausf. G has been left out of the CotA estabs.

Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.

Correct, Ausf. G is missing. Question is, how many "G"s had been produced - and when. Also, after a quick check of the estabs, I regret to say that the Panzer III Ausführung H has the wrong gun. The estabs list the following armaments for the Panzer III Ausf. F and Ausf. H:

• PzKw III F - KwK 36
  PzKw III H - KwK 38

That's not correct, as the label in the estab would suggest the Panzer III would have had a 2cm gun (the KwK 38), where it was in fact equipped with 3.7cm and 5cm guns later on.

Also, with the current labeling in the estabs, the "Panzer III KwK 36" can be confused with the KwK 36 guns of the Tiger I tank. The Tiger was equipped with a 8.8 cm gun, and its designation was KwK 36 L/56. The Panzer III's first gun's designation was either KwK 35/36 L/45, or just (3.7cm) KwK L/45, as far as i know.

Also, I wonder whether COTA/BFTB take different versions/types of ammo into account (regarding penetration values) or not, anyway here goes:

• The initial standard ammo for the Panzer III was the Panzergranate 38 (3.7 cm AP+HE), which allowed for interchangeability with the Infantry's 3.7cm-PaK anti-tank guns.
  
  It would be a really cool feature if BFTB (or the next installment) would take interchangeability of ammunition into account, i.e. interchang. of AP/HE of German PaKs/tank guns, when it comes to resupply-requests - or when setting supply-priorities.
• Anyway, then the Panzergranate 40 (3.7 cm) delivered better results. Same with the 5cm-guns mounted on the Panzer III later on, the Panzergranate 39 and 40 (AP, both 5cm) delivered better results than the initially used 5cm-Panzergranate 38. For infantry support, the Germans kept using the Panzer-Sprenggranate 38 (HE) for both guns (37mm and 50mm), with the respective calibres.

I'll list the actual armament of the different Pz II + III models, according to the "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" (I guess checking JENTZ will confirm that):

Panzer II:

• Ausführung A - G (where F was the production model, along with the successor Pz II "L" {"Luchs"}, while all the other types {A - J} were either prototypes or special versions with low production numbers):
  2cm KwK 30/L55
• Ausführung G and J:
  2cm KwK 38 L/55
• Ausführung L:
  KwK 39

Panzer III

• Ausführung A - G:
  3.7cm KwK L/45
• Ausführung H - M:
  5cm KwK 39 L/60

´

RE: Numbers of Panzer III
The "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" states the following numbers:

Production of Panzer III:

• Pz III Ausführung A, B and C:
  
  Protypes.
• 30-55 Panzer III Ausführung D
  
  Sources vary regarding the number of units. Prototypes/pre-production models.
  
  Upgraded front and side armor: 30mm
  30-55 units. Armament: 3.7cm-KwK L/45
• 500 Panzer III Ausführung E
  
  First model to be accepted by the German Army: first production model.
  After the Campaign in the West (France 1940) 52 Type "E" were converted for the scheduled invasion of England (operation Seelion) - which means they were equipped with a "wade-addon", which allowed for crossing rivers/water barriers - to a depth of 3.96 meters. As "Seelion" was canceled, these 52 tanks were given to the 18th Panzer-Division, where they turned out to be of great value, as German armored units had to cross numerous rivers in Russia.
• 440 Panzer III Ausführung F
  
  While, according to the Lexikon, most sources indicate that 440 Type "F" units had been produced from Sept. 1939 - Juli 1940, they emphasize that one source mentions 435 and/or 500 units.
• 600 Panzer III Ausführung G
  
  1940-1941. Changes: Upgraded armor, 5-cm KwK L/42. Many of the types "E" and "F" were upgraded with this gun later on.
• 1,400 Panzer III Ausführung H
  
  The Lexikon points out that one source indicates that only 308 units of this type had been produced. Improved turret, additional (welded?) armor-plating (30mm) placed on weak spots, most likely as interim-solution.
• 650 Panzer III Ausführung J
  
  Production started in March 1941, with the 5cm-KwK L/42 short-barreled gun, but from January 1942 onwards the last 1,067 units (of a total of 1,549 units) had been equipped with the new 5cm-KwK 39 L/60.
  
  Hitler learned that the "Heeres-Waffenamt" (Army ordnance-office) gave orders to equip this new version of the Panzer III with the short-barreled L/42 - as the priority for the long-barreled KwK 39 L/60 used to rest on installing it on PaK 38 trailers, as an anti-tank gun - although Hitler had ordered to mount the KwK L/60 on the Panzer III.
  
  Hull and rear armor had been increased to 50mm, finally.
• 168 Panzer III (Types F, G and H) were converted to Panzer III "Tauchpanzer" ("dive tanks", tanks that could "dive", means wade through pretty deep waters) for the initial landings during the planned invasion of England, but, unlike the converted Type E tanks mentioned above, these Tauchpanzer could "dive" to a depth of 15 meters, using a snorkel add-on (18 meters).

These are the models that had a "chance" of getting fielded on the COTA theatre or on the African theatre, during 1941-1942.

I'll dig out some books to see if JENTZ came up with numbers.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Nice overview of the type here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0492714026

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

[*] 600 Panzer III Ausführung G

1940-1941. Changes: Upgraded armor, 5-cm KwK L/42. Many of the types "E" and "F" were upgraded with this gun later on.

[*] 1,400 Panzer III Ausführung H

The Lexikon points out that one source indicates that only 308 units of this type had been produced. Improved turret, additional (welded?) armor-plating (30mm) placed on weak spots, most likely as interim-solution.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Production of the type was about twice that of the more heavily armoured Panzer III Ausf. H in 1940-41.

As far as unit composition, records indicate a roughly a fifty-fifty ratio between the two models in North Africa.

Soooo... If this one source (which the Lexikon mentioned, without prodividing details about the "source") is right, Type G had a higher production number than "H" (with 308 tanks) and a higher numerical presence among the Divisions, most likely.

Btw, Ausf. H wasn't exactly heavily armored, it received 30mm-"add-ons", most likely on weak spots where the armor was less than the standard 30mm plates, so I doubt that this really created an armor of 60mm on vital spots (like turret face or front glacis). Jentz describes the differences correctly, most likely, but I'm too lazy to go and check right now.

Oh, and this: In the video, the narrator says that Hitler only learned of the disobedience (regarding equipping the Panzer III with the "wrong" 50mm gun - the shortbarrreled version) of the Army ordnance-office in January 1941, while the Lexikon insists on Januar 1942 as the point where the factories then exclusively mounted the long-barreled versions. The Lexikon usually got it down, regarding dates, but I'm not sure here. I can't imagine Hitler to wait for a change of the gun for a full year, so either the Lexikon or the video's narrator is wrong. Gonna check Jentz and other sources.

Anyway, POE, what's your source?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

Anyway, POE, what's your source?

Which comment of mine are you alluding too?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

Btw, Ausf. H wasn't exactly heavily armored, it received 30mm-"add-ons", most likely on weak spots where the armor was less than the standard 30mm plates, so I doubt that this really created an armor of 60mm on vital spots (like turret face or front glacis). Jentz describes the differences correctly, most likely, but I'm too lazy to go and check right now.

Do you have a copy of Battlefront's Combat Mission Afrika Korps? If so, it's easy to demonstrate the practical impact of doubling the armour from 30mm to 60mm in the IIIh. Make yourself a nice flat map, and deploy two companies of UK Crusader II, ftf, against a company each of IIIg and IIIh. Set the opening range to 800m. I think that you'll find the difference in "K" results suffered by the two German types quite compelling.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Which comment of mine are you alluding too?

The comment about Type G's production numbers, "twice that of ... [] ... Ausf. H".

Without having checked Jentz yet (I will tho), web-sources suggest that these upgrades have not been applied to the entire hull, nor to the turret frontplate or gun mantlet, let alone to the front glacis. Most sources refer to this upgrade as partial additional armor applied to "critical spots". It's most likely in Jentz regarding what spots had been treated that way. I, for one, don't like to take a game as source for historical details, especially if it comes to Battlefront's portfolio, which contains quite a few errors (ie. in TOW).

According to the sources on the web, and that's what I recall from literature, these plates weren't welded, I just checked a few webpages (photos: i.e. on www.waffenhq.de), these plates were bolt-on.
They were mainly upgrades for the driver compartment, as the driver compartment featured the only vertical part (only 9° from vertical). The front glacis wasn't upgraded either, so the only part receiving another 30mm-upgrade was the front part of the lower hull (23°), just below the (short) front glacis which incorporated the front lights. The add. plates consisted of face-hardened steel.

I wouldn't call this "heavily armored". Still, the Panzer III Ausf. H was basically immune to all enemy guns/calibres used at the time - at least at medium and long ranges, IF the enemy did aim at the upgraded parts. The Russian KV and T/34 could crack the H version though, while being largely immune to the Pz III gun (before the KwK 39 L/60 was used).

EDIT: There was a famous event in Russia (Battle for Krasnogvardeysk), Russian Lt. Zinoviy Kolobanov commanded a group of 5 KV tanks, on 14th August 1941, which killed 43 tanks and some anti-tank guns within roughly 30 minutes. His tank alone killed 22 tanks, while German tanks and anti-tank guns scored 135 hits on his KV - without effect/penetration. The German tank group, part of the 8th PzDiv, mainly consisted of PzII, with a few PzIII. But even the PzIII were torn apart.
KV and T/34 weren't available in huge numbers at the time, though.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Which comment of mine are you alluding too?

The comment about Type G's production numbers, "twice that of ... [] ... Ausf. H".

The production numbers that I cited came from this work:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1854095188

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
The production numbers that I cited came from this work:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1854095188

Excellent, as this book is still pretty much one of the best, although it's been released in 1978. I do like Jentz' hands-on approach though, where Jentz doesn't hesitate to crawl into or under original tanks (ie. on display) - even measuring the tiniest parts, in order to be able to describe differences between several revisions.

So, 308 units type H might be correct or close to the actual number, then.
EDIT: I could imagine that most type H had been sent to Russia. Does Chamberlain refer to the distribution of the various models?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy
So, 308 units type H might be correct or close to the actual number, then.
EDIT: I could imagine that most type H had been sent to Russia. Does Chamberlain refer to the distribution of the various models?

The original production order for the IIIh was barely half-filled when it was canceled and production shifted to the IIIj.

Chamberlain doesn't break down the distribution of vehicles by theatre, but in 1941 the IIIh was being shipped to division depots as replacements, rather than as the base vehicle for a unit. A predominantly IIIf or IIIg company could become a predominantly IIIh company through the attrition/replacement cycle. From a gaming standpoint, it's important to note that the IIIf and IIIg could be(and in many instances were) overhauled to the IIIh standard through the addition of the 50mm L/42 (IIIf) and additional armour plate (IIIg). Perhaps that's why Panther handles all of the type as IIIh, rather than the earlier type(s).

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Nice overview of the type here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0492714026

One has to be really careful with tv docs like the one above and the one below. As they often contain major factual errors. The tv documentary above seems to contain an error regarding when Hitler (year) got to know about the fact that the Panzer III L/60 gun-upgrade had been delayed.

The narrator in the doc below insists on December 1943 as arrival date for the first Tiger tanks in the African Theatre. That would have been well after the actual destruction and following official disbandment of the Afrika Korps (30th Juni 1943). The interviewed "experts" later on stick to the correct dates, though.

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid= ... orps&hl=de

This doc provides some interesting infos about Matildas, Tigers and Crusaders, in terms of work conditions for the crews, though.

Still, I do trust quite some BBC and most SpiegelTV (The German "Spiegel" {mirror} print magazine's pendant might be the US "Time Magazine", regarding style/content) documentaries, but the Discovery channel and especially the History channel broadcast quite some B.S. full of factual errors, these days.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

The original production order for the IIIh was barely half-filled when it was canceled and production shifted to the IIIj.

Chamberlain doesn't break down the distribution of vehicles by theatre.....[] .... it's important to note that the IIIf and IIIg could be(and in many instances were) overhauled to the IIIh standard.....

Does Chamberlain come up with a number of H models? If so, what's the exact number?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

The original production order for the IIIh was barely half-filled when it was canceled and production shifted to the IIIj.

Chamberlain doesn't break down the distribution of vehicles by theatre.....[] .... it's important to note that the IIIf and IIIg could be(and in many instances were) overhauled to the IIIh standard.....

Does Chamberlain come up with a number of H models? If so, what's the exact number?

308.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

308.

Ha, ok, then Chamberlain's book is the Lexikon's unnamed source for this number. Thnx. [:)]