anybody in here???

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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damezzi
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by damezzi »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I'd like to point out a few issues that perhaps would help bring up numbers.  I have to confess I don't play as much TOAW (though I am trying) as I'd like because I find some things so tedius.  For axample, it's great that there is a T & D hotkey, which probably would be the #1 used hotkey and help people save  TON of time and get more playability & interest.  The problem is these hotkeys tend to always shift you to the next unit, and it's just damn tedious to keep scrolling from one screen to another and lose where you are all the time when you just wanted to do something quick and simple.  No, we have to keep using the whole menu for everything, which is just so cumbersome. 

There isn't many video run-throughs I've seen, and the few I have seen show exactly this, the very cumbersom use of the menu system constantly.  This is NOT the way to attract new players, the graphics to be honest are not that great (not that it matters to me), but having a bad interface design can be attrocius.

Of course I have some really nasty gripes about other things too, like why is it every freiken time without warning, that free-bombard shot comes up, and then one of your units ALWAYS decides to move into the new hex, only to totally screw up your whole plans and settings.  Ughhhh... I really am begining to HATE that free-shot thing, it's not a bonus, it's a huge penalty!  Who gave my units an order to move out of their fortified and over-stockpiled position, only to leave it vulnerable to a acounter-attack!??  I never understood this 10 years ago, and thought for sure it would be fixed today.  Anyhow, I'm going to cut off my rants for now....  I just hope some of these issues will be fixed soon, but it's been a decade already...






Just a last point. ( I hope)

Does Toaw have outdated features? Sure it has. It has a very outdated interface, for example.
In terms of rules set (the variables a game choose to model and how it models them), we can't call it outdated, even because I can't understand the concept of 'up to date rule set' outside the realm of market trends. Toaw can be tweaked and must be tweaked in relation to bugs and gamey aspects, but Toaw has the advantage of years of gameplay and tests, so that the game issues are already well known. Sure it may be surprising to see well known issues like ant units attacks being discussed along the years and not being solved, but I hope they still can be, as indicated by some other well known issues being solved by this future patch.

Sure Toaw can also be improved by a better naval model, air model and some strategic layer, perhaps. But this fact doesn't diminish the game value.

The fact is that I'm not a radical guardian of any game. I have, for example, played flight simulator for years and I'm thinking about putting it aside for X Plane, because X Plane does exactly the same thing, but better in what, for me, are the most important aspects.

In the case of Toaw, I would ask if someone can point me to a game that does exactly what Toaw does, i.e. reproducing all modern period (since 19th century) conflicts with a huge database of scenarios and being fun to play.
Once in a while I go after something like Toaw and check some reviews etc. If Toaw is not the only one of it's genre in the market, it sure is the best. If someone knows of a game that does exactly what this game does, but in a better way, please tell me. I would sure like to take a look.
macgregor
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by macgregor »

TOAW does have the ability to represent more conflicts than any other game. But I think the bugs have finally caught up with it. As you said, they are well known. I was always amazed why those with the talent to design scenarios would create 50 scenarios on the eastern front in ww2 and 0 say exploring the current options in the 'war on terror'. Needless to say there are very few really new scenarios. The crazy thing is that while TOAW3 will open COW scens, it can't play them without glitch, which to me is a step backward, and of course like anything else, has yet to be fixed. Do JMass's graphics work with COW? Because even with the bugs, I'd rather play War in Europe and Countdown to Infamy with COW as they are still the best at representing the strategic level of WW2, only I can't because they are COW scenarios. So I make a flap and take the full broadside from Matrix fans, and eventually leave the forum, seemingly under duress.
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hellfish6
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by hellfish6 »

What are the bugs? Maybe I'm just not noticing them...?
macgregor
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by macgregor »

I don't know all of them, but the ones that are keeping me from playing are the ease of reloading a turn and the reload messages. These wouldn't be a problem if I was playing friends, but these guys I meet in the ladders can get fairly gamey. When you get messages saying they reloaded 7-9 times every turn, the fun value is lost. I'm only aware that the game lacks a realistic 'feel' but these threads are replete with examples of highly questionable results. There's a certain amount of arcane game knowledge that appears to trump the historic and military. I know it sounds crazy but it seemed to be more fun as COW. Many of the bugs that bother me are scenario-related(ex; full supply/strength Soviet Mech corps showing up 15 hexes behind the German lines.) A lot of my dissatisfaction is also with the fact that it is still woefully inadequate at representing combat in water. Based on what I've seen, Zaratoughda was right.'Matrix does graphics, but they do NOT do design.' Let me add that if he is wrong, Matrix has yet to prove it, to me anyway. If this game is no better than COW, I'm 50$ in the hole. Years have passed and i have yet to see a really positive change made. I've seen changes made, though they seem like shots in the dark; of questionable result, if not motivation for wanting to tweak first.
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Obsolete
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Obsolete »

About the Ladder club issues.  I did sign up a decade ago, but quickly dropped out after I noticed too many players just seem to always know where your hidden units are, and tend to always get such great results attacking.  This is the problem, when people are trying to compete for fame & glory, there are many who will do just about any unethical thing to attain that.  This what what I've seen in any ladder-club.  
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hellfish6
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by hellfish6 »

I don't play PBEM... guess the above doesn't apply to me.
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Zaratoughda
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Zaratoughda »

If you want one blatantly obvious bug.... the terrain that is listed at the bottom of the screen relative to where you have the mouse cursor.... is broken. It lists SOME of the terrain in a given hex but not all of it... leaving some of the terrain simply not listed.

If you have light forrest and heavy forrest in the same hex and move the cursor over it on the bottom of the screen it will show the light forrest but NOT the heavy forrest, and what is particularly bad about this is the game (in general) applies the severest modifiers for things like movement and combat. Luckly, the graphics are correct relative to the scenario.

And... on top of this... the support programmer went and put in tooltips for the next version release. In other words, rather than fix the problem that is there or add a new enhancement he put programming time into duplicating something already available (and I hate tooltips).

Whatever,

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Anthropoid
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Anthropoid »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

About the Ladder club issues.  I did sign up a decade ago, but quickly dropped out after I noticed too many players just seem to always know where your hidden units are, and tend to always get such great results attacking.  This is the problem, when people are trying to compete for fame & glory, there are many who will do just about any unethical thing to attain that.  This what what I've seen in any ladder-club.  

Yep. After playing maybe a half-dozen ladder games I concur.
The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
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Obsolete
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Obsolete »

Come to think of it, one thing that is bugging me is I am never sure what is a new addition to the game, and what is a bug.  For example, currently I noticed my HQ's are getting hit by bombard-shots when I try to disengage.  This should never happen if my HQ (or artillery) is moving into a hex with a friendly unit there.  Yet I am still getting disbanded in some cases.  The new manual seems to pretty much repeat what the old one does on this matter.

And some other things, it seems setting your deployment to entrenching does not make your units dig in every turn, you have to keep going around re-digging in, and it's very tedious the way the hotkeys keep switching to the next unit in line.

Anyhow, I'll be looking forward to the next patch :P


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Anthropoid
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Anthropoid »

I always thought of some of these "bugs" as intentional inclusions to simulate the fog-of-war and limited command and control. But not all of them. The reload during PBEMs is a very annoying one. The crappy air and naval portion is another. The importance of "arcane game knowledge trumping history and military knowledge" another.
 
Overall, as a newcomer who never owned a previous version, I enjoyed the game quite a bit, and had at least a couple really fun PBEMs using the 1979 WWIII scenario. But yeah, it is disappointing that a system with so much potential is left so inactive for so long. The graphics do kinda hurt the eyes. Little sprites with figures of soldiers and vehicles like they use in the Forge of Freedom and Crown of Glory would be a huge improvement. And the interface, yeah, very tedious and clunky.
The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ ... playnext=3
Hyding
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Hyding »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Come to think of it, one thing that is bugging me is I am never sure what is a new addition to the game, and what is a bug.  For example, currently I noticed my HQ's are getting hit by bombard-shots when I try to disengage.  This should never happen if my HQ (or artillery) is moving into a hex with a friendly unit there.  Yet I am still getting disbanded in some cases.  The new manual seems to pretty much repeat what the old one does on this matter.

And some other things, it seems setting your deployment to entrenching does not make your units dig in every turn, you have to keep going around re-digging in, and it's very tedious the way the hotkeys keep switching to the next unit in line.

Anyhow, I'll be looking forward to the next patch :P



Keep your HQ off the frontline. Or at least don't move from one enemy zone of control to another especially if it involves direct movement from one hex to another that are adjacent to the same enemy unit. The large number of movement points you expend doing this represents a lot of time spent in motion in close proximity to hostile forces. Not recommended for HQ or support units.

HQs tend to have low recon ratings and they do poorly at both catching and avoiding enemy units.
macgregor
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by macgregor »

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I always thought of some of these "bugs" as intentional inclusions to simulate the fog-of-war and limited command and control. But not all of them. The reload during PBEMs is a very annoying one. The crappy air and naval portion is another. The importance of "arcane game knowledge trumping history and military knowledge" another.

Overall, as a newcomer who never owned a previous version, I enjoyed the game quite a bit, and had at least a couple really fun PBEMs using the 1979 WWIII scenario. But yeah, it is disappointing that a system with so much potential is left so inactive for so long. The graphics do kinda hurt the eyes. Little sprites with figures of soldiers and vehicles like they use in the Forge of Freedom and Crown of Glory would be a huge improvement. And the interface, yeah, very tedious and clunky.
We all bought on to this new 'Matrix TOAW3' only to find it was basically still ACOW only couldn't play the 100 or so ACOW scenarios w/o glitch, thus requiring us all to play only the TOAW3 scenarios. It was all brilliant marketing designed to get all our money (and commitment)upfront for essentially nothing but promises of a better game. Well that game has yet to materialize and I'm sure the money is all gone. Well, it's been several years now. Short of some earthshaking announcement from Matrix that let's face it, isn't coming, I'm afraid we've all been had. Matrix games is developing a stink with me that won't be easy to wash. Couldn't they just have stayed away from my favorite games? The best parts of this game came free of charge from the scenario designers and people like JMass, who weren't hardcore profit-mongerers but wanted to see a better product for theirs and everyone else's benefit. Bottom line -Matrix hasn't shown me squat beyond how to give them my money for promises. I'm going back to ACOW that is, to the extent I still even want to play. I feel sick to my stomach.
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Anthropoid
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Anthropoid »

Naturally, I can't speak to how different it is from previous versions, but I'll take your word for it . . . and, yeah, for you guys who've been on board with the series a long time, to get sold a game that is supposed to be a dramatic improvement on a series that you then feel is nothing but a load of goods . . . that has got to suck.

For me, I'm still a pretty devout Matrix fanboy. WiTP has always been a good game, not perfect by any means, but a damn good game. While I may join in the joking about AE being a delusion of vapourware, I actually believe they _will_ eventually release it, and that it will be a good game.

Harpoon is clearly a good game, it just didn't suit my tastes. It sits on my shelf, and maybe someday I'll get into it.

The one case in which I'm pretty annoyed with them is Hired Guns. Despite having a vid card that, as far as i can tell meets spec, I have yet to get that one to work on my laptop. Just been lazy about trying to get it to work on my souped up machine . . . If I find it won't work there either, then I'll be pretty annoyed.

I don't know how much of it is Western Civ Software, and how much is Matrix . . . I suspect more WCS, but Forge of Freedom and Crown of Glory Emperor's Edition are fabulous games. I'm a huge WCS fanboy. Like all games, even these jewels eventually get a bit stale, and one tends to put them down for a while, but they are masterpieces as far as strategy games go overall.

Alexander and Starships unlimited are fun little games. I'm not sure if Starships is a knockoff of Gal Civ or vice versa, but its not a bad little game for what I paid. I had some fun for a few months with that one. Alexander I found VERY hard. Maybe I'll eventually go back and finish that campaign.

Oh yeah, WWI: La Grande Geurre. I got involved in that one about Dec 2008 or Jan 2009, so I think I missed the worst period of nighmarish buggyness. They released some updates a while back that I installed, and it finally seems to be workign pretty well, but I was so disgusted based on my earlier experiences that I have not gone back to retry that one. That of course is totally Ageod's fault, indeed, if i understand correctly, not even the Devs fault, but simply the decision-makers at Ageod who pushed the game out to retail too quickly. I've certainly never seen Matrix do that, a foible that seems to be increasingly common among game makers: Civ4 comes to mind with its maddening series of patches, AND to make matters even worse its obviously avaricious series of "expansions" (Warlords, BTS, Gold, etc). The fact that I paid something like $150 bucks total to own "Civ 4 Beyond the Sword," supposedly an "expansion" on Civ4, really irks me when I consider BTS to be "the" game. Vanilla Civ4 was only about 2/3 of a complete game, with elements in Warlords and BTS bringing up to "completion." Yet these jokers charged me three times for one game IMHO . . . Never had Matrix do that to me, but I can hear that that is how you feel you've been treated on ToAWIII, and I agree it is an annoying feeling, and one that compels a guy to speak out and hopefully deter the marketer to desist from such behavior in future.

It would be interesting to know how the Matrix guys would respond to your complaints, but then again, the lack of any Matrix mod or dev or beta-tester activity in this forum is one of the things you're grumbling about isn't it! [;)]
ORIGINAL: macgregor

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I always thought of some of these "bugs" as intentional inclusions to simulate the fog-of-war and limited command and control. But not all of them. The reload during PBEMs is a very annoying one. The crappy air and naval portion is another. The importance of "arcane game knowledge trumping history and military knowledge" another.

Overall, as a newcomer who never owned a previous version, I enjoyed the game quite a bit, and had at least a couple really fun PBEMs using the 1979 WWIII scenario. But yeah, it is disappointing that a system with so much potential is left so inactive for so long. The graphics do kinda hurt the eyes. Little sprites with figures of soldiers and vehicles like they use in the Forge of Freedom and Crown of Glory would be a huge improvement. And the interface, yeah, very tedious and clunky.
We all bought on to the is new 'Matrix TOAW3' only to find it was basically still ACOW only couldn't play the 100 or so ACOW scenarios w/o glitch, thus requiring us all to play only the TOAW3 scenarios. It was all brilliant marketing designed to get all our money (and commitment)upfront for essentially nothing but promises of a better game. Well that game has yet to materialize and I'm sure the money is all gone. Well, it's been several years now. Short of some earthshaking announcement from Matrix that let's face it, isn't coming, I'm afraid we've all been had. Matrix games is developing a stink with me that won't be easy to wash. Couldn't they just have stayed away from my favorite games?
The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ ... playnext=3
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Obsolete
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Obsolete »

Well, when I heard they were re-making TOAW, I didn't read the details with a fine comb for what were to be changes.  But I do remember some sort of re-vamping of graphics.  However, I don't seem to really see any new graphics that are revamped, but I really didn't expect much improvement in that department anyway.  The one thing I do see new, is that new timer-clock on the side-panel.  I didn't even notice it until I moved up off the 1024x default. 

My main concern, was having it compatible with any winblows OS.  That infamouse "Not an NT compatible CD" copyprotecting system was rediculous.  For a while I could get around this with a few hacks, but then IIRC I coudln't get the damn thing to run at all after a while.  So, at least it's playable again.



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Curtis Lemay
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I'd like to point out a few issues that perhaps would help bring up numbers.  I have to confess I don't play as much TOAW (though I am trying) as I'd like because I find some things so tedius.  For axample, it's great that there is a T & D hotkey, which probably would be the #1 used hotkey and help people save  TON of time and get more playability & interest.  The problem is these hotkeys tend to always shift you to the next unit, and it's just damn tedious to keep scrolling from one screen to another and lose where you are all the time when you just wanted to do something quick and simple. 

Why not just click on whatever unit you wish to move next? You're not required to use the hotkeys or the "next unit" button. (And, personally, I never do).
No, we have to keep using the whole menu for everything, which is just so cumbersome. 

?? What are you trying to do that requires constant use of the menus?
Of course I have some really nasty gripes about other things too, like why is it every freiken time without warning, that free-bombard shot comes up, and then one of your units ALWAYS decides to move into the new hex, only to totally screw up your whole plans and settings.  Ughhhh... I really am begining to HATE that free-shot thing, it's not a bonus, it's a huge penalty!  Who gave my units an order to move out of their fortified and over-stockpiled position, only to leave it vulnerable to a acounter-attack!??  I never understood this 10 years ago, and thought for sure it would be fixed today.  Anyhow, I'm going to cut off my rants for now.... 

If your unit is 4-times or more stronger than the defenders, there is a chance of that happening - it's called "Retreat Before Combat" (RBC, for short). If you can recognize that situation, then there is a workaround you can use: initiate the attack planner via a ranged unit. Then add whatever ground assaults you want from within the attack planner.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

And some other things, it seems setting your deployment to entrenching does not make your units dig in every turn, you have to keep going around re-digging in, and it's very tedious the way the hotkeys keep switching to the next unit in line.

Autoentrenching only occurs if you end the turn yourself (no combats scheduled). If it ends early, for any reason, after a combat phase, then it won't happen. This simulates that, effectively, your opponent has gotten the jump on you. So, there is a risk/reward aspect of trying to squease the maximum number of combat phases out of your player turn.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: macgregor

We all bought on to the is new 'Matrix TOAW3' only to find it was basically still ACOW only couldn't play the 100 or so ACOW scenarios w/o glitch, thus requiring us all to play only the TOAW3 scenarios.

The TOAW III scenarios are nothing other than converted ACOW scenarios themselves. I don't know of any reason why any ACOW scenario couldn't be converted to TOAW III and work. However, if the ACOW scenario required a modified .exe, then there will be a problem - it's solvable, though, via generation of a modified .eqp from that modified .exe.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
macgregor
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by macgregor »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
The TOAW III scenarios are nothing other than converted ACOW scenarios themselves. I don't know of any reason why any ACOW scenario couldn't be converted to TOAW III and work. However, if the ACOW scenario required a modified .exe, then there will be a problem - it's solvable, though, via generation of a modified .eqp from that modified .exe.
Curtis look, you're one of the heralded scenario designers I mentioned. And it is to you and people like you, I owe a debt of gratitude. But that gratitude should not, and does not, extend to Matrix. Your work was donated free-of-charge and the benefit was tangible. Matrix's work cost me money and is of questionable benefit, if any at all. It's not the eqp file, it's units not showing up, it's aircraft attacking their own ships -the glitches one encounters running ACOW scenarios in TOAW3 are frankly quite bizarre. But they are indeed there.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

You have misunderstood my point entirely.  I am not talking about 3-D shooters, which has an over-flooded market.

Here's a sample of what I'm talking about from an old post.  And as time goes on, TOAW just gets more dated..

Actually, I think the post you quoted gets more outdated.


I find nothing even remotely sensible about TOAW. I have found it largely unplayable and quite unrealistic.

This isn't worth a point-by-point rebuttal. I'll just say that it's wrong on about every point.

I'd prefer to offer a few of my AARs as my rebuttal:

tm.asp?m=1893814

tm.asp?m=1818685

tm.asp?m=1546619

tm.asp?m=1726673

I've found TOAW to be extremely playable and extremely realistic.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: anybody in here???

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: macgregor

It's not the eqp file, it's units not showing up, it's aircraft attacking their own ships -the glitches one encounters running ACOW scenarios in TOAW3 are frankly quite bizarre. But they are indeed there.

Then why haven't I encountered them? Why are there no other reports of this? These are just the sorts of things we endevor to fix if they can be identified. And, let's be clear - we've fixed a bunch of them. Are you sure those scenarios were ACOW scenarios designed for ACOW version 1.04?
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
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