supply sources

[ericbabe]

McKenzie is the guy who tries to interpolate economic data for all places and times.

I personally prefer more difficult supply rules, but before we'd limit Africa like this I'd want to make sure such a thing was thoroughly tested.  We really didn't have the time / capacity in beta testing to test these sorts of things right now; we only have a handful of active beta testers.  Supply sources are easy enough to modify, however.  Maybe consider modding the supply sources and posting your changes in the modder's.  If enough people test it and find it playable (particularly, if the AI can deal with the supply locations as they are), then we'll consider making official changes to the supply sources.

[Anthropoid]

Sometimes a good game has to compromise historical reaity to be fun to play.

[barbarossa2]

I do agree with you Anthropoid. I don't think the placement of the Algiers makes it a worse game. I do think it definitely makes it less realistic. These are obviously two totally different things. And I have played--and enjoyed--plenty of unrealistic games in my life!

However, to me, dealing with more realistic supply problems does make a game more interesting. But I am not sweating this one.

[Anthropoid]

Not having played it enought yet, no sense for where the sweet spot is vis a vis supply spots. But just pointing out that, arguments about 'historical accuracy' need to be balanced with issues of playability and challenge. It seems like that is an important point to consider re: Finland. If it is not possible for a Swedish player have a fighting chance because Finland is almost indefensible, then irrespective of whether Finland had very few troops it might be advisable to include a supply source. Even with a 30K forage value, troops who are unsupplied will not have very many bullets with them when they show up for battle.

[Russian Guard]

Rather than include a supply point for Finland, I'd rather see all of Finland be a "no Depot" zone, so it levels the playing field for both sides. Russia can't commit a lot of Troops without taking a hit on Foraging, so yeah they can take Finland, but the cost will be higher if they commit a bunch of troops to overwhelm what the Swedes can defend with. That's more historical, IMO.

[ptan54]

You mean make all of Finland like Lapland / Switzerland / Pripyet marshes?

[Russian Guard]

ORIGINAL: ptan54

You mean make all of Finland like Lapland / Switzerland / Pripyet marshes?

Yes, that would be my idea. Then neither side would likely mass a large Army in Finland, which was historical.

[ptan54]

That would work, would reduce that region to a minor theater.

[barbarossa2]

Or, one could allow Lapland to support supply depots. Which I am not sure would be un-historical.

[barbarossa2]

But I also noticed last night, that there is just 1 supply point along the Rhine. But most German supply points are scattered through the eastern half of Germany.  That doesn't make really any sense to me. There isn't one in Cologne, the Palatinate, or even Frankfurt. But Algiers and Tunis have one.

I will survive.

[DaveP]

I think the English need something for the Med.  Right now the English must either have an unsustainable line of depots from England, or engage in ahistorical invasions, such as grabbing Morrocco.  I vote for making Gibralter a supply source to represent the centrality of Gibralter in all English activities in the Med.
 
Thanks,
Dave
 

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: DaveP

I think the English need something for the Med.  Right now the English must either have an unsustainable line of depots from England, or engage in ahistorical invasions, such as grabbing Morrocco.  I vote for making Gibralter a supply source to represent the centrality of Gibralter in all English activities in the Med.

Considering there is no way of carrying a certain amount of supplies by ship or building up a level of supply in a distant province not capable of being a "source" of supply itself Im inclined to agree.

In both of my PBEM games (the two I am playing the Brits in that is) Im forced to contemplate seizing a source of supply to help support operations in the Med. In reality I think Malta would have been used.

[barbarossa2]

Well, I would kind of agree with you DaveP. But I don't think Britain ever mounted an invasion with more than 30,000 troops in the Mediterranean (outside of the Iberian peninsula). I think forage levels could take care of operations in the Mediterranean. Or they would have to dominate the sea and actually have a supply chain to the region. Which I believe they managed historically. Or?

Most British amphphibious invasions were limited affairs. Except for the "Grand Expedition/Walcheren Expedition" of 1809 (to raid the new massive French naval bases around Antwerp, which would compare with Toulon when finished). The expedition set sail amid much fanfare with 40,000 men and hundreds of ships--the largest invasion fleet in British history to that point. Even that was a relatively small affair by CoG:EE standards.

Does anyone know of a British attempt to have a large number of troops operate in the Mediterranean?

I doubt the British could have supplied a major invasion force of over 30,000 in the Mediterranean for long if they hadn't have had command of the Ocean. And the game does certainly give them a good chance at that. Logistics were simply a much more complicated thing than most games represent.

The only way Gibraltar could have become a "major" supply point would have been if the British had commanded the sea. Again, the game allows for such things.

P.S. The "Grand Expedition" of 1809 was a miserable failure. Poor command, poor decisions to waste time on Flushing instead of advancing straight on Antwerp which gave Napoleon time to assemble a defence. Finally a massive malaria epidemic among the British soldiers landed on the mosquito infested island of Walcharen ended it. Napoleon knew about the disease problems in the area, and while on Elba, he told his British doctor that he knew the invasion would amount to nothing because of the conditions on the island. Only French prisoners and Spaniards were used to garrison the island.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Does anyone know of a British attempt to have a large number of troops operate in the Mediterranean?

No but Napoleon stopped to water at Malta en route to Egypt.

As it is, if you get caught in the ocean out of supply you take massive casualties. I dont know if thats because the water is considered "zero forage" or what, but I have personally seen full strength divisions take 2000+ casualties from a single turn out of supply. This is compounded by super long supply chains which will collapse entirely if disrupted at a single point. In reality you have supplies on ship and stop for food and water en route if needed.

I agree more complicated supply rules are a good thing. For the most part the current system is an improvement of the prepatch system. But a means of prepositioning supplies in locations like Gibraltar and Malta for use by expeditions or a means for taking a couple turns worth of supply embarked with naval expedition troops is needed.

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Dave have you tried using Diplomacy to gain supply bases in the Med, it's what England had to do during the period (and presumably one of the reasons there is a diplomacy element in the game).

For eg as I understand it English Diplomatic efforts with regard to Naples were in part designed for Supply perposes and not just so Lord Nelson could go screw Hamaltons wife Fanny.

All the Best
Peter

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker


For eg as I understand it English Diplomatic efforts with regard to Naples were in part designed for Supply perposes and not just so Lord Nelson could go screw Hamaltons wife Fanny.

Getting supplies from foreign sources (particularly minors) isnt modeled very well unfortunately.

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

No minors are out as you cant set up treaties with them, but some creative thinking re treaties with Major powers should get you what you want, ie "they will accept this", in this case a supply point.

All the Best
Peter

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Kingmaker

HiHi

No minors are out as you cant set up treaties with them, but some creative thinking re treaties with Major powers should get you what you want, ie "they will accept this", in this case a supply point.

All the Best
Peter

An option allowing me to start a supply chain from somebody elses territory would be nice.

The current options are rather clumsy in this regard. Lend province could be used which would be expensive to "buy" from another player. Shared supply depots, again expensive for the player footing the bill, and here you would be at the mercy of the player supposed to maintain the depots.

No, there really isnt a diplomatic option similar to the British system of obtaining their own local supply in the current system.

[barbarossa2]

Mus, I agree with you completely on the game needing more attention to logistics. The ability to preposition supplies is important. As well as lots of other things. Have you ever played "Campaigns on the Danube"? Though still not perfect, it had the best supply system I have ever encountered.

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: Russian Guard

ORIGINAL: ptan54

You mean make all of Finland like Lapland / Switzerland / Pripyet marshes?

Yes, that would be my idea. Then neither side would likely mass a large Army in Finland, which was historical.

That does sound like an interesting possibility.

ADDIT:

ORIGINAL: Mus

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Does anyone know of a British attempt to have a large number of troops operate in the Mediterranean?

No but Napoleon stopped to water at Malta en route to Egypt.

As it is, if you get caught in the ocean out of supply you take massive casualties. I dont know if thats because the water is considered "zero forage" or what, but I have personally seen full strength divisions take 2000+ casualties from a single turn out of supply. This is compounded by super long supply chains which will collapse entirely if disrupted at a single point. In reality you have supplies on ship and stop for food and water en route if needed.

I agree more complicated supply rules are a good thing. For the most part the current system is an improvement of the prepatch system. But a means of prepositioning supplies in locations like Gibraltar and Malta for use by expeditions or a means for taking a couple turns worth of supply embarked with naval expedition troops is needed.

Troops on ships don't take attrition/foraging casualties do they? Or is it just the ships themselves that are always in supply?