Improvements in the game system?

The Seven Years’ War was fought across the globe and called by some the first “World War” as virtually every major power participated. In the center of events was Prussia, almost constantly at war and lead by the now legendary Frederick the Great.

Relive the exciting and trying days of Frederick the Great in Horse and Musket: Volume I, the improved and expanded combination of the previous Prussian War Machine and Prussia’s Glory titles. Horse and Musket: Volume I is a reboot of the successful Horse and Musket series, including not only two solid historical titles in one package, but also many new game features, a powerful new editor, and a complete graphics overhaul to an already acclaimed gaming system.

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lancerunolfsson
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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by lancerunolfsson »

I have been burned by opponets playing very looses with the rules. Such as capturing Moscow in a Russian front game with a flak counter etc.

You have not been "burned" unless opponent has cheated. You have been beaten fairly under the rules of the game;^) That is not to say that the game might not suck. Except for reloading moves or re-scripting files there is no way to Cheat in a computer game. Granted most computer games are very poorly constructed from Both simulation and game stand points.

Little understood fact NO GAME IS A COMPLETE SIMULATION (or even probably good). Solution: understand that it is a game and not a simulation on most levels.

Other important fact generally the more complex a game becomes the less valid it is as a simulation. As the complexity puts player on many levels of control not pertinent to the level of command being represented(rarely does regiment commander sight individual AT guns). Also as complexity increases more poorly thought out rules will appear that will be exploited by GOOD players. It is not hard for me to find opponents that are much better than I at exploiting much of the complex construction of a game like for instance Operational Art Of War. Solution Human opponent: find opponents with similar skill level to myself (lesser becomes boring after the first couple of games). I am not a GOOD player, I am a good player sometimes when I am in the ZONE with a particular game. Solution AI: As you state self limiting is a good way.

Huge problem with computer games. When they are broken you are stuck waiting for the developer to fix them. Most of the time this never happens. But they have the advantage of both players stuck playing the same game with rules enforced by the computer.

Board and miniatures games have the problem that the player who is most assertive about ambiguous rules interpretation has a serious advantage. Solution: tell them to screw themselves;^)(eg be more assertive).
If you are near Medford Oregon Check out,

http://lancerunolfsson.googlepages.com/home
(Also some free Downloadable Miniature Rules and a Free Downloadable 7YW Board Game)
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V22 Osprey
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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by V22 Osprey »

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley
These kinds of lopside victories can even happen against a human opponant. After I bought my first HPS Napoleonic game, I found an e-mail player. He proceeded to hide his army deep in the woods and send only individual cavalry units to take all the objectives nowhere nere the main battle area. He even waited till the last turn to capture the objectives. A victory to him, but certainly not very sporting.

Its war.

This is how the Americans won the revolutionary war.They knew not to go toe-to-toe with British regulars in an open field.Sounds like this is what your opponent did to win.He figured he probably couldnt beat you in a full on fight but instead use cunning tactics to take the VPs and win.

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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by Tim Coakley »

Valid points about How to win...but certainly not playing with the spirit of the period. When I play a game, I want to immerse myself in the period to get a feel for the tactics of the day, the problems facing the commanders, and to have fun. All three aspects are improtant. I have learned to pick my opponents more carefully.

I am a member of one of the clubs that plays HPS games (and hopefully will play HnM V1)...and I stick with players that have a similar style.

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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by Tim Coakley »

I thought some more about this and my issue...it is not that he used cunning tactics, but he used gamey tactics.

Cunning would have been masking a portion of his force behind a hill and falling on my flank. Sending lone small units to sit next to far off objective hexes (also a bad scenario design) and then have them come in like SAS commandos on the last turn via some kind of satelite uplink is gamey.

I credit him the win...but would never play him again by choice. Did face him in a tournament with much stricted play rules and earned a very close marginal victory. Got spanked in the next round!
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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by sullafelix »

Not to monopolize the thread but I do want to answer. When I meant a simulation I meant that unlike Chess or backgammon a wargame is simulating a specific battle or campaign in a specific time period. So when 10 pieces of Flak and 1000 soldiers can capture a city of 2 million it is not even remotely possible. I do agree that many of these problems are game design flaws. But to me it is exactly what Tim said gamey tactics. I wouldn't do anything in a wargame that I didn't believe possible for that moment in time.
 
Back to the game. Musket and Pike and Eighteenth century warfare and Napoleonics to a point are very defined and linear types of warfare. Do not expect to fight WW2 or even the Franco-Prussian War with Horse and Musket Volume I. But if you are interested in the period or want to learn about it than this game is for you. It is priced quite low for the amount of new work done to the engine.
 
As far as AI playing if you are not content with it at all than may I suggest playing solitaire against yourself. The system and it's use of command control makes solitaire playing much easier because of the fog of war that envelops even your own army. Now if I just spoke heresy about playing solitaire please bear with me. I just picked up a new russian Front boardgame whose price is almost twice this games. There has never been any backlash whatsoever in boardgames to put a solitaire suitability level on a boardgame so why not on a computer game?
 
I will admit that my preferred computer games are ones that I can tell a subordinate what to do and then watch how things play out. For my minutae kick I go more for boardgames. So my view of playing against the AI is skewed from that angle.
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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by Zaratoughda »

ORIGINAL: sulla05

The SSI tactical game and the whole series " Battles of Napoleon " etc. were hard,but just like any other computer game you could figure out the way around the AI and totally stomp the enemy.

I view playing against the AI as this. I play them against the AI as closely as I can to what would be an actual for what of a better term performance of a General at the date of the battle. Just like Tim in boardgames and in computer games I have been burned by opponets playing very looses with the rules. Such as capturing Moscow in a Russian front game with a flak counter etc.

To me all wargames are simulations of the time period and not " games " to be poured over to look for rule loopholes. Just as you can make " house rules " for boardgames you can do this with computer games. If I feel that a victory hex is worth to much or simply not something that the generals of the time would have worried about I discount those points.

To me at times against the computer I want to play stupid. No one in their right mind would expect to win as Lee on the 3rd day of Gettysburg given the same troops and constraints he was under. But I play it anyway to see what outcomes are possible.

From my seat HM is a great game that has had tons of testing and love poured into it by some people. I've read so much history and there are so many examples of subordinates being buffoons on any given day and for me this game simulates it very well. Just when I think I have old Fred where I want him some ancient senile general I'm stuck with refuses to move for 2 turns. 

Chuck Kroegel's series of games for SSI included Sons Of Liberty, Battles of Napoleon, and the four ACW games.

Yes, any AI can ultimately be outsmarted but, I have seen in these games where it appears the AI isn't doing anything and then all at once it will hit you like a ton of bricks. In other words, it determines how much force it needs to attack, waits until it gets that force and then attacks in no uncertain terms. This is as opposed to games like the HPS series that attack with units one by one.... a 'piecemeal' attack that is just suicide.

So, more than anything else it is a matter of whether the AI is acting totally stupid or not. Also, in the SSI series, like in a lot of games, you can raise the level of the computer opponent if you feel the AI is not enough of a challange.

As far as HnM2 is concerned, it is real easy for anyone to try Mollwitz as the Prussians and see what happens. A really straight forward battle. Just march your forces across the field and drive the Austrians from it. With me, when my right flank hit first, the entire Austrian center turned to face that direction leaving themselves wide open to flank attacks and thus, the 71 to 4 annilation. With the original HnM (or was it the FTG game) the AI was not that stupid.... so like I said the AI devolved in HnM2.

Again, this is really easy for anyone to test for themselves and, as I understand it the AI has not been changed for this new release.

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RE: Improvements in the game system?

Post by V22 Osprey »

ORIGINAL: Tim Coakley

I thought some more about this and my issue...it is not that he used cunning tactics, but he used gamey tactics.

Cunning would have been masking a portion of his force behind a hill and falling on my flank. Sending lone small units to sit next to far off objective hexes (also a bad scenario design) and then have them come in like SAS commandos on the last turn via some kind of satelite uplink is gamey.

I credit him the win...but would never play him again by choice. Did face him in a tournament with much stricted play rules and earned a very close marginal victory. Got spanked in the next round!

Ok, now I see what you are saying, that is pretty gamey.
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