Short Surface Combat Test

[Mynok]

In Witp, Mission Speed and Cruise Speed were only different for Bombardment and Fast Transport. Those TFs would cruise to a spot within Full Speed of the DH, then run in at Full Speed at night, do the mission, then run out at Full Speed. This is assuming Retirement Allowed setting for both types.

If that's changed we definitely need to know. I never use Cruise Speed in Witp. Just Mission or Full.

[TAIL GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

ORIGINAL: Juggalo
Bombardment and Fast Transport TFs use cruise speed.

Actually, they don't.

But still, this has to be fixed

woops, got my 'speeds' mixed up....still poring over the manual.[:o]

What's the difference between Mission and Full Speed?
Nothing, as far as I can tell on the Task Force info screen when you switch between the two.

[dpstafford]

ORIGINAL: Juggalo
What's the difference between Mission and Full Speed?
Nothing, as far as I can tell on the Task Force info screen when you switch between the two.

Mission speed is the same as cruise speed, EXCEPT when you are doing something like a night run in for fast transport or bombardment (with retirement on). In these cases the TF will use full speed to get in and out before daylight. Mission speed varies by mission (hence the name), but is usually the same as cruise.

[TAIL GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: dpstafford

ORIGINAL: Juggalo
What's the difference between Mission and Full Speed?
Nothing, as far as I can tell on the Task Force info screen when you switch between the two.

Mission speed is the same as cruise speed, EXCEPT when you are doing something like a night run in for fast transport or bombardment (with retirement on). In these cases the TF will use full speed to get in and out before daylight. Mission speed varies by mission (hence the name), but is usually the same as cruise.

Got'cha....there's one less mystery solved.
Thanks for the explanation.
ChadG

[GB68]

Good work Barb!

This seems to be quite a serious bug and may explain some of the well publicised surface combat anomalies. I wonder how this affects the AI's effectiveness?

Will watch with interest. Has this been caught in time for the first patch which is due soon, right?

[Barb]

I would think AI use Mission speed everytime.
John Lansford: No other interferences? Only surface combats were involved? No submarines, no planes, no repeated attacks? Cant Believe. When I run my test with both sides running at Mission speed, loses for whole fight are in range of 0-2 CAs and 2-6 DDs sink for both sides. (I have not very aggresive admirals for my tests so with better results could be different)

[Dili]

Bombardment and Fast Transport TFs use cruise speed.

Au contraire! In witp mission speed is a "variable" tactical speed. You are telling the game engine to define when to use Full or cruise speed.
So fast transport or bombardement needs it, i think full speed will work too.

Choosing full or cruise forces the game to use that speeds always.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Miller

But what Human player (or AI for that matter) would send a SC TF in at cruise speed?

Yes its a bug, but not one that any PBEM player should ever have to worry about, unless they are very stupid.

In PBEM stupid things often happen and usually end up in catastrophies. Afterwards I say to myself: how could I have been that stupid... [;)]

[Mus]

I just started playing WITP:AE a few days ago. Have not read the manual much as I am waiting on the physical shipment to really get into it. Have played the Coral Sea scenario a few times and started Guadalcanal yesterday or the day before.

I have had some lopsided fights and wondered what I was doing wrong.

[:D]

Glad I found this thread. I had not realized that if you set your TFs to "cruise speed" that they would stay at this speed even during combat. I thought that was just selecting the speed they would use moving from point A to point B.

I take it the speed a ship is traveling effects the ease with which it can be hit in ALL types of combat? Asking this because today I was noticing, "Damn it sure seems like the Japanese planes are hitting my CVs with alot more bombs than I am hitting theirs in these CV vs CV shootouts!"

If this is because I was on cruise speed and they were on full speed (by virtue of mission speed switching it to full during combat) it will make me feel better about the game, was starting to get frustrated.

[:o]

[John Lansford]

ORIGINAL: Barb

I would think AI use Mission speed everytime.
John Lansford: No other interferences? Only surface combats were involved? No submarines, no planes, no repeated attacks? Cant Believe. When I run my test with both sides running at Mission speed, loses for whole fight are in range of 0-2 CAs and 2-6 DDs sink for both sides. (I have not very aggresive admirals for my tests so with better results could be different)

Barb,

You can believe what you want; of the six CA's lost so far, perhaps one was sunk by air attack. The others all were sunk by gunfire or surface torpedo; my subs don't torpedo ships bigger than escorts and merchant ships, apparently. Several of them were in transport TF's but that still shouldn't change how well they shoot back.

[Cap Mandrake]

I would say Barb has got to feel like Mendel among his pea plants. Brilliant!

I am convinced that speed setting may be a partial explanation. The data are convincing and it even makes sense that the combat model would make a slow-moving target easier to hit. It mirrors the real world as a low target speed would make the probability of a hit greater. Of course, in real life, the TF commander would ring up 25-30 kts as soon as the enemy were spotted...so it has to be fixed.

Also, it occurs to me the combat model may be slowing down the ships of the losing TF as the flagship or the weakest link takes damage. This would only bias the outcome in favor of the side that has lesser speed damage. In contrast, in battle, the damaged vessels would fall out of line so the others could maintain speed.

If this effect of TF slowdown is part of the battle model then the rush toward unbalanced "wipeouts" woudl only be greater.

[Kwik E Mart]

And it's not like the commander wasn't trying to run away when things got dicey. Notice that Chestney attempts to disengage twice, only to be caught up with by the Japs...poor bastards didn't stand a chance...

ORIGINAL: Barb

I had a suspicion. IJN set to mission speed. USN set to cruise speed

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 07, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Reef Islands at 122,141, Range 23,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Hiei, Shell hits 5, on fire
BB Kirishima, Shell hits 3
DD Murasame
DD Harusame, Shell hits 1
DD Samidare
DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Umikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Suzukaze

Allied Ships
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 21, and is sunk
CL Boise, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
DD Dunlap, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
DD Fanning, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
DD Cummings, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
DD Lamson, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Case, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
DD Conyngham, Shell hits 17, and is sunk



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 29,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 23,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 23,000 yards
BB North Carolina engages DD Umikaze at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 16,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Umikaze at 16,000 yards
DD Cummings engages DD Suzukaze at 16,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Fanning at 16,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Dunlap at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 13,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 13,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Umikaze at 13,000 yards
DD Fanning engages DD Suzukaze at 13,000 yards
DD Cummings engages DD Umikaze at 13,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Cummings at 13,000 yards
DD Cummings engages DD Kawakaze at 13,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Cummings at 13,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Dunlap at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages BB North Carolina at 12,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 12,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Conyngham at 12,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Lamson at 12,000 yards
DD Lamson sunk by DD Samidare at 12,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Harusame at 12,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Harusame at 12,000 yards
Chestney, C.I. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 14,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages BB North Carolina at 14,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 14,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Fanning at 14,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Umikaze at 14,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Cummings at 14,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Fanning at 14,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kawakaze at 14,000 yards
DD Fanning engages DD Murasame at 14,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB North Carolina engages BB Hiei at 12,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CL Boise at 12,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Suzukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Dunlap at 12,000 yards
DD Fanning sunk by DD Umikaze at 12,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Dunlap at 12,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Cummings at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages BB North Carolina at 9,000 yards
BB Hiei engages BB North Carolina at 9,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Case at 9,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Case at 9,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Kawakaze at 9,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Cummings at 9,000 yards
DD Murasame engages DD Dunlap at 9,000 yards
Chestney, C.I. orders Allied TF to disengage
BB North Carolina sunk by BB Hiei at 9,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Suzukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Samidare at 9,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Umikaze at 9,000 yards
DD Cummings engages DD Suzukaze at 9,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Conyngham at 9,000 yards
DD Harusame engages DD Cummings at 9,000 yards
DD Case engages DD Murasame at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Boise at 11,000 yards
DD Case sunk by BB Hiei at 11,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Dunlap at 11,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Dunlap at 11,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Conyngham at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Boise at 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CL Boise at 8,000 yards
DD Suzukaze engages DD Cummings at 8,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Dunlap at 8,000 yards
DD Kawakaze engages DD Cummings at 8,000 yards
DD Cummings sunk by DD Samidare at 8,000 yards
DD Dunlap engages DD Harusame at 8,000 yards
BB Kirishima engages CL Boise at 8,000 yards
CL Boise sunk by BB Hiei at 8,000 yards
DD Conyngham engages DD Suzukaze at 8,000 yards
DD Dunlap sunk by DD Kawakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Samidare engages DD Conyngham at 8,000 yards
DD Conyngham sunk by DD Murasame at 8,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------