Update:
It is now january 24th 1942.
The bad news is that Singapore fell on january 17th. Somehow my guys down there just kept surrendering and this should free up quite a few units for the japanese move north towards Rangoon.
The good news is, I have now 2200 AP's building trenches in Pegu. I concentrated more on shipping in artillery and AA for a while. Arty so that my guys have cannons to shoot with at anyone who tries to cross that river at Pegu and AA to help protecting the port and airfield in Rangoon.
The british Brewsters I evacuated from Singapore have arrived in Rangoon and also a first squadron of Hurricanes. In total I have now 140 fighters stationed in Rangoon with more Hurricanes and even some P40s coming in. Japan has flown a few attacks against my convois but always paid a very heavy price for it. At the moment I am quite pleased with my progress.
Japan has moved a small force up north and took Moulmein which was undefended. He wont get the rest of Burma!
what does it take to hold Rangoon? Update: Victory at Pegu
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
ORIGINAL: Speedy Gonzales
Hi. I'm currently playing Allies v AI in the scenario starting Dec 8th. I've reached Sept 42, and thought you might like to consider my experience of the campaign in Burma. The defence of Rangoon, over a 3 month period, has been my best ever wargaming blast in 40 yrs, and I'd recommend it.
Thanks for your inspiring post. It made me move my defence forward to Pegu. [;)]
I really liked the Burma campaign in WitP but since I played the Guadalcanal to 1945 campaign, I had to march my troops all the way down from India. Not this time! I want action in Burma now! [:D]
The campaign in Burma in WitP was, for me anyway, always a fait accompli. The Allies could almost never sustain a defence until Imphal & Kohima. The Japanese army was almost unstoppable. Leaving India quite exposed, very early in the war.
But from what I've read in several AAR's, in AE the same cannot be said. Well, so it seems? I am usually a Japanese player and always enjoyed Burma as the best ground combat theatre in all of WitP. But in AE, the Allied player can mount a substantial defence if he is inclined to do so. Once I get into a full GC, it will be an interesting theatre to see what develops.
"Are you going to come quietly, or do I have to use earplugs?"
- Spike Milligan
- Spike Milligan
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
The situation in Burma is very interesting. A human Japan would have realised early on what I am doing in Rangoon. He would then run some fighter sweeps over Rangoon to take out the AVG and then sink every single ship trying to bring in reinforcements and supplies. The AI was not smart enough to do this.
I am now seriously commited in Burma which might leave India a bit vulnerable. I am not overly concerned about an invasion though. The enemy would have to land a force of around 2000 AP's for me to be really worried. If it is more around 800 - 1200 AP's, India is going to be a death trap for them. First of all I still have the forces in India to match that. Second I believe the supply situation in India would be impossible. Everything, fresh troops and supplies would have to be shipped in. Bombers could be flown in but since I am holding Burma even fighters would have to be shipped in and fighters would be essential to protect supply convoys to India.
The RN in my game is intact. I have two BB's, one BC and two british carriers in the area. I also have quite a few bombers there which I pulled out of Singapore with new air units arriving from Europe. Japan would have to commit quite a few carriers for many months to protect reinforcement convoys to India, this is would be the only way for Japan to make success in India possible. If the AI pulls its carriers out two weeks after the landing I will sink every single supply ship thereafter, leaving the japanese forces stranded in India.
If Japan lands 1200 or even 2000 AP's at Madras, the first thing I will do is march my troops in Burma down south to put pressure towards Singapore. The landing force probably was pulled out there, the enemy's situation in Malaya should be weakened. I might not reach Singapore but even if I just take a few bases further south, the supply situation for the japanese troops in India would be even more difficult.
So it is a very interesting situation in Burma.
I am now seriously commited in Burma which might leave India a bit vulnerable. I am not overly concerned about an invasion though. The enemy would have to land a force of around 2000 AP's for me to be really worried. If it is more around 800 - 1200 AP's, India is going to be a death trap for them. First of all I still have the forces in India to match that. Second I believe the supply situation in India would be impossible. Everything, fresh troops and supplies would have to be shipped in. Bombers could be flown in but since I am holding Burma even fighters would have to be shipped in and fighters would be essential to protect supply convoys to India.
The RN in my game is intact. I have two BB's, one BC and two british carriers in the area. I also have quite a few bombers there which I pulled out of Singapore with new air units arriving from Europe. Japan would have to commit quite a few carriers for many months to protect reinforcement convoys to India, this is would be the only way for Japan to make success in India possible. If the AI pulls its carriers out two weeks after the landing I will sink every single supply ship thereafter, leaving the japanese forces stranded in India.
If Japan lands 1200 or even 2000 AP's at Madras, the first thing I will do is march my troops in Burma down south to put pressure towards Singapore. The landing force probably was pulled out there, the enemy's situation in Malaya should be weakened. I might not reach Singapore but even if I just take a few bases further south, the supply situation for the japanese troops in India would be even more difficult.
So it is a very interesting situation in Burma.
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Update:
The situation on the ground:
Japanese forces have reached Pegu. The initial force seemed rather weak to me, so I launched a shock attack against the japanes lines. The good news was that the enemy force was kicked right out of Pegu again and suffered 6000 casualties. The bad news is that my assault point dropped from 2200 to 1700. The enemy has now reentered Pegu and I have decided to use my force more prudently, limiting my self to bombardment attacks and staying defensive otherwise.
The situation in the air:
The airfield in Rangoon has reached size 6. I have now 200 fighters in Rangoon and in two turns I will actually also have the aviation support to keep them all flying. I have deployed a first unit of Hudson bombers to Rangoon, to attack japanes positions in Pegu. As soon as my aviation engineers are in place I will send in more bombers.
The naval situation:
As long as my convoys get LRCap protection they get through without losses. Outgoing convoys suffer a few losses here and there since I only protect incoming convoys to increase the flow of reinforcements. The losses are very low though. I am actually considering sending my two british BB's and the PoW to do some friendly bombardment of the japanese lines at Pegu. A high risk endeavour but no risk no fun.
The situation on the ground:
Japanese forces have reached Pegu. The initial force seemed rather weak to me, so I launched a shock attack against the japanes lines. The good news was that the enemy force was kicked right out of Pegu again and suffered 6000 casualties. The bad news is that my assault point dropped from 2200 to 1700. The enemy has now reentered Pegu and I have decided to use my force more prudently, limiting my self to bombardment attacks and staying defensive otherwise.
The situation in the air:
The airfield in Rangoon has reached size 6. I have now 200 fighters in Rangoon and in two turns I will actually also have the aviation support to keep them all flying. I have deployed a first unit of Hudson bombers to Rangoon, to attack japanes positions in Pegu. As soon as my aviation engineers are in place I will send in more bombers.
The naval situation:
As long as my convoys get LRCap protection they get through without losses. Outgoing convoys suffer a few losses here and there since I only protect incoming convoys to increase the flow of reinforcements. The losses are very low though. I am actually considering sending my two british BB's and the PoW to do some friendly bombardment of the japanese lines at Pegu. A high risk endeavour but no risk no fun.
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Update: February 16th 1942
I rule the sky and I rule the sea. The enemy shipped most of the invasion force in to Moulmein. Unfortunately I realized too late what was going on and by the time I did and had my trusty biplane torpedoe bombers down in Rangoon I could mostly only sink empty outgoing transports. I sank loads of ships, but only a few with troops on. [:(]
The battle at Pegu is now in its crucial phase. The enemy has a force deployed that is almost equal to mine in terms of number of soldiers and assault points. I am now down to 1350 AP's and seriously regret the initial shock attack. While it drove out the japanese for two days, it cost me 500 AP's that I could really use now. I am suffering heavy casualties, often higher than the AI despite beeing dug in and defending. The AI even managed to twice reduce my fortification despite heave odds against the attack so it is now down to level 3.
I really wondered how they could give me so much trouble even in the beginning when the japanese force was only half my strength in term of assault points so I decided to sneak a peak and load up the japanese side.
First of all, all japanese units are fully prepped for Pegu. My units aren't fully prepped despite preparing for ages and the AI cannot possibly have anticipated a month before that I would put up a major fight just in Pegu. The only explanation I have is that the AI cheats when it comes to prepping.
It doesn't matter because the real problem for my troops is the japanese experience and morale. Japan has three divisions in Pegu of which two are around 90+ experience and 90+ morale and they kick my ass. And even although one of those divisions is reduced to half strength, their morale is still 90+. Those guys must be on ecstasy or something to be so happy even after losing every second guy in the unit.
Meanwhile my "crack units" have experience rates of around 50. I have one tank regiment which has an experience of 9 (!!!). Did they just leave driving school? Do they know how to fire their cannons? Should I really use them or are they causing more damage among my own troops than on the enemy? How many fellow soldiers have they run over because they put in the wrong gear and went backwards instead of forward?
Btw, I brought in two Battleships and one Battlecruiser to bombard the japanes lines at Pegu. Those three ships + several heavy cruisers caused an amazing 150 casualties among the japanes so it was a complete (high risk) waste of time.
When I still had 2200 AP I was very sure I would hold Pegu. Now I am not certain at all. It has become a pure battle of atrition and while Japan is using up its elite units in the fight I am often losing more than the enemy. So the question is whether I can keep bringing in reinforcments in time. I have an australian division about to arrive in Pegu in 3-5 days and a second one disembarking at Karachi which will take 10 - 14 days to arrive in Pegu. If can bring in those units I might hold the line, but I am not sure att all the front will hold this long. So if you have any combat units to spare please beam them directly to Pegu.
I rule the sky and I rule the sea. The enemy shipped most of the invasion force in to Moulmein. Unfortunately I realized too late what was going on and by the time I did and had my trusty biplane torpedoe bombers down in Rangoon I could mostly only sink empty outgoing transports. I sank loads of ships, but only a few with troops on. [:(]
The battle at Pegu is now in its crucial phase. The enemy has a force deployed that is almost equal to mine in terms of number of soldiers and assault points. I am now down to 1350 AP's and seriously regret the initial shock attack. While it drove out the japanese for two days, it cost me 500 AP's that I could really use now. I am suffering heavy casualties, often higher than the AI despite beeing dug in and defending. The AI even managed to twice reduce my fortification despite heave odds against the attack so it is now down to level 3.
I really wondered how they could give me so much trouble even in the beginning when the japanese force was only half my strength in term of assault points so I decided to sneak a peak and load up the japanese side.
First of all, all japanese units are fully prepped for Pegu. My units aren't fully prepped despite preparing for ages and the AI cannot possibly have anticipated a month before that I would put up a major fight just in Pegu. The only explanation I have is that the AI cheats when it comes to prepping.
It doesn't matter because the real problem for my troops is the japanese experience and morale. Japan has three divisions in Pegu of which two are around 90+ experience and 90+ morale and they kick my ass. And even although one of those divisions is reduced to half strength, their morale is still 90+. Those guys must be on ecstasy or something to be so happy even after losing every second guy in the unit.
Meanwhile my "crack units" have experience rates of around 50. I have one tank regiment which has an experience of 9 (!!!). Did they just leave driving school? Do they know how to fire their cannons? Should I really use them or are they causing more damage among my own troops than on the enemy? How many fellow soldiers have they run over because they put in the wrong gear and went backwards instead of forward?
Btw, I brought in two Battleships and one Battlecruiser to bombard the japanes lines at Pegu. Those three ships + several heavy cruisers caused an amazing 150 casualties among the japanes so it was a complete (high risk) waste of time.
When I still had 2200 AP I was very sure I would hold Pegu. Now I am not certain at all. It has become a pure battle of atrition and while Japan is using up its elite units in the fight I am often losing more than the enemy. So the question is whether I can keep bringing in reinforcments in time. I have an australian division about to arrive in Pegu in 3-5 days and a second one disembarking at Karachi which will take 10 - 14 days to arrive in Pegu. If can bring in those units I might hold the line, but I am not sure att all the front will hold this long. So if you have any combat units to spare please beam them directly to Pegu.
RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
It is early March 42 and I still hold Rangoon. Singapore has fallen, but Java is still mine and so is Manila. I have not shipped any troops to Rangoon, just shifted a bunch from the India area over to there and transfered some Air units (a bunch of LBs and some Fighters) there. The Japanese still havent even tried for an attack on it. They seem more occupied in Java and New Guinea area (Guadalcanal ect...).
I think the reason for this is because instead of trying to disperse my forces at the start of the war, and get them to safety, I decided to try to combine them all in one or 2 areas, making for so long and tough battles in Borneo, Java, and the Phillipines. The Japs are having one hell of a time trying to eliminate them, so they are pulling out their units from Singapore areas to try and deal with them. Yes, they have many other areas and almost have my places blockaded, but when you go through their with some transports that have massive air cover and 2 or 3 different TFs running around causing all kinds of trouble, hitting them here, then turning to hit them somewhere else, it makes it hard for the enemy to really know where you will be and making it easier for your supply TFs to get in, get out, and then get back again. Sure, I have lost some ships (still have the big ones though that really count), but the time they are spending trying to dig me out has been more than worth it.
I think the reason for this is because instead of trying to disperse my forces at the start of the war, and get them to safety, I decided to try to combine them all in one or 2 areas, making for so long and tough battles in Borneo, Java, and the Phillipines. The Japs are having one hell of a time trying to eliminate them, so they are pulling out their units from Singapore areas to try and deal with them. Yes, they have many other areas and almost have my places blockaded, but when you go through their with some transports that have massive air cover and 2 or 3 different TFs running around causing all kinds of trouble, hitting them here, then turning to hit them somewhere else, it makes it hard for the enemy to really know where you will be and making it easier for your supply TFs to get in, get out, and then get back again. Sure, I have lost some ships (still have the big ones though that really count), but the time they are spending trying to dig me out has been more than worth it.
Avenge the U.S.S. Houston (CA 30)
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RE: what does it take to hold Rangoon?
Resolution:
It is now march 7th 1942. After my last post japanese forces in Pegu launched attacks against my positions for several days, suffering severe losses. I was curious how the AI was doing and took a peak. The situation was catastrophic for the AI. Out of an inital 1200 assault points, there were only 650 left. Meanwhile my strength stabilised around 1350 AP's. I had clearly overestimated the japanese capabillities. One of the elite japanese infantry divisions was down to an assualt value of 0, it was practically wiped out in the attacks.
By now the australian 6th division has arrived in Pegu. Unfortunately the AI moved a thai division past Pegu into northern Burma and is now one hex from Mandalay. I have a baseforce there and flew in an indian brigade. They have a combined assault value of 128 behind a level 3 fort and I am confident they will hold Mandalay. Meanwhile I have sent the australian 6th division north to destroy the thai division.
The australian 7th division is right now beeing shipped out of Calcutta. The AI has ceased its attacks at Pegu and has taken a defensive position. It is suffering high losses each turn from my bombardment attacks. As soon as the 7th division has arrived, I will try pushing them out of Pegu and stabilize the front further south, maybe Moulmein, maybe Tavoy. I will then rest my troops for a while and eventually launch two assaults. A bigger one south towards Singapore (don't know how far I will get) and a smaller one into northern Thailand to cover the eastern flank of my push south.
Burma can definitely be defended against the AI. Should you consider setting up a defence at Pegu, here is a list of things that I did that you should defintely not do:
- Decide early where to defend, don't change your plans after two months like I did so that your troops are fully prepped and well dug in. Pegu is imo the best choice.
- Don't launch a counter shock attack as soon as japanes forces arrive, even if it is just a small part of the japanese force and you are seemingly vastly superiour. Half of your inexperienced troops will accidentally trip and fall into their own bayonets when they jump out of the trenches to charge the enemy lines. I lost 500 AP's this way.
- Change the leaders of your forces. I realised this way to late when the battle was already going on. Most of your forces in Burma and India are commanded by complete morons who shouldn't be in charge of anything. Changing leaders will help reducing your losses.
Christmas in Singapore! (well, maybe...)
It is now march 7th 1942. After my last post japanese forces in Pegu launched attacks against my positions for several days, suffering severe losses. I was curious how the AI was doing and took a peak. The situation was catastrophic for the AI. Out of an inital 1200 assault points, there were only 650 left. Meanwhile my strength stabilised around 1350 AP's. I had clearly overestimated the japanese capabillities. One of the elite japanese infantry divisions was down to an assualt value of 0, it was practically wiped out in the attacks.
By now the australian 6th division has arrived in Pegu. Unfortunately the AI moved a thai division past Pegu into northern Burma and is now one hex from Mandalay. I have a baseforce there and flew in an indian brigade. They have a combined assault value of 128 behind a level 3 fort and I am confident they will hold Mandalay. Meanwhile I have sent the australian 6th division north to destroy the thai division.
The australian 7th division is right now beeing shipped out of Calcutta. The AI has ceased its attacks at Pegu and has taken a defensive position. It is suffering high losses each turn from my bombardment attacks. As soon as the 7th division has arrived, I will try pushing them out of Pegu and stabilize the front further south, maybe Moulmein, maybe Tavoy. I will then rest my troops for a while and eventually launch two assaults. A bigger one south towards Singapore (don't know how far I will get) and a smaller one into northern Thailand to cover the eastern flank of my push south.
Burma can definitely be defended against the AI. Should you consider setting up a defence at Pegu, here is a list of things that I did that you should defintely not do:
- Decide early where to defend, don't change your plans after two months like I did so that your troops are fully prepped and well dug in. Pegu is imo the best choice.
- Don't launch a counter shock attack as soon as japanes forces arrive, even if it is just a small part of the japanese force and you are seemingly vastly superiour. Half of your inexperienced troops will accidentally trip and fall into their own bayonets when they jump out of the trenches to charge the enemy lines. I lost 500 AP's this way.
- Change the leaders of your forces. I realised this way to late when the battle was already going on. Most of your forces in Burma and India are commanded by complete morons who shouldn't be in charge of anything. Changing leaders will help reducing your losses.
Christmas in Singapore! (well, maybe...)