Night Intruders

[Richard III]

You can do that ??? [X(]

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.

[wernerpruckner]

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You can do that ??? [X(]

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.

yes, you can do that.
But the American A/C wont carry bigger bombs....they stay with their 500lb bombs........2000lb+4000lb bombs make much nicer holes into the ground (industry, area....) [8D]

[kaybayray]

Jeldren,
If you are doing this because you are losing a lot of your Night Bombing Aircraft you might want to consider reading my Post in The War Room Forum up top. I describe in great detail how I build and execute a Night Bombing Strike. It is not the only way but it does work well for me.

Typically I lose anywhere from 5:1 to > 10:1 Daylight Bombers to Night Bombers when used in their Traditional Roles early in the war. Most Night Strikes I lose <5 Bombers and kill >30+. I also do 25-50% Urban Damage in each of the cities I strike. I cant even get close to this in my Daylight Strikes until into 44 because I dont have any real long range escort capability until 44 in Northern Europe. So I find that BC is my real destructive force until then.

I am curious as to the results you obtain by using the Daylight Aircraft in the Night Bombing role.
How many cities do you target each strike?

How much Ubran Damage are you doing in each of those cities?

How many Bombers are you typically losing in a nights operations?

Are they being lost to NJG aircraft or are they crashing on the runway while landing?

How many enemy NJG aircraft are you destroying in a nights operations?

The B-17's and B-24's have much more defensive firepower because they were designed to fly Daylight Precision Strategic Bombing Missions. They trade off carrying capacity of ordnance for defensive guns and armor. They perform their Strike in a different manner than the Night Bombing aircraft do. I dont believe that just by placing them into a Night Bombing mission will cause them to deliver their ordnance differently. I did not build this game so I dont know.

Later,
KayBay

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: swift

ORIGINAL: Richard III

You can do that ??? [X(]

ORIGINAL: Jeldren

Yes. I change non Lancaster BC units to mosquitos, B-17 or  B-24. They sufffer much less casualties compared to
Hallifax, Stirling and Wellington bombers.

yes, you can do that.
But the American A/C wont carry bigger bombs....they stay with their 500lb bombs........2000lb+4000lb bombs make much nicer holes into the ground (industry, area....) [8D]

I agree with the Swift-meister!

In the old TOH...
The part about changing units to get a few more Mosquito B.nn's, I definitely agree with that. By mid '44 I like having 12 - 16 squadrons of Mossies, I can fly 4 sqdn per day and their loss/sortie are almost non-existant.

TS

[Jeldren]

I get a much better kill/death ratio at night in 1943. I nearly always get a 3:1 or better ratio at night.
No B-17/B-24 casualties is not an uncommon result. Striling III on the other hand nearly always suffer
several casualties. I can sendout a B-17 raid during a moonlit night and suffer few casualties. Stirling
and Hallifax bombers will get ripped to shreds during a moonlit night.

Deep raids with B-17 , B-24 and mosquitos attract lots of enemy night interceptors. The enemy flak
often kills only axis fighters and no bombers. Ocasionally a night interceptor/flak gunner gets
lucky and I loose a bomber or two. My Lancasters get much less attention and are able to heavily
damage their targets. During a good night my night intruders kill 8-20 night interceptors per
air base targeted.

My Daylight K/D ratio varies alot.


40 : 7 air field in western france with medium/heavy bombers & many escorts.
151:59 same raid in north west germany.
0:3 a typical bombing mission in italy after italian surrender.
22:18 a typical fighter sweep in italy (P-39 and P-40)
48:62 a good raid on the ruhr
8:78 a really bad raid on the ruhr.

[Fallschirmjager]

I find putting them into the bomber stream works best and then putting a few over AFs I know contain night fighters.
Make sure you put the NIs that patrol airfields at a altitude above the ceiling for the 37mm flak gun or else you risk then getting shot up.
37mm is usually the biggest gun to have to worry about over AFs

[TechSgt]

Jeldren;

Just a curiousity...

What altitude do you usually send in the B-17's & B-24's?
B-17's flying at 32k should take less flak damage than a Lancaster at 20k.

I wonder about the "night" defensive fire of B-17's as compared to the Lancasters -- in game terms.

This is an interesting idea, since the "original" purpose of night bombing was area targets.
It should require the B-17G/B-24J model with H2S for accuracy... How to get PPF's in BC units?
The effect of spreading the lighter bomb load... The game effect of a 500 lbs in pixel hex vs 2x 1000 lbs?
It would take more B-17/B-24 sorties to deliver the same Halifax/Lancaster tonnage...
To do major damage in area bombing, tonnage-over-time does matter -- Firestorm?

The trade-off would be more experienced pilots in the later months.

TS

[kaybayray]

Well, I fly the traditional aircraft of BC and I fly them at 10,000 feet and I get a 5:1 to 10:1 Kill / Loss ratio when running Night Bombing Strikes.

Daylight Strikes I get about a 1:1 to 1:2 Kill / Loss ratio when running Daylight Strategic Bombing Strikes utilizing the traditional aircraft and flying at about 20,000 feet.

I dont fly at 30,000+ because that is unrealistic and very Ahistoric. There is also a tremendous decline in accuracy of bombing above 20,000 feet especially early in the war. Historical Daylight Precision Bombing altitudes are 18,000 to 24,000 feet for typical historical strikes. Some specific strikes were flown much lower and not until much later were they flown higher, with some specific exceptions.

For Night Bombing I keep it below 15,000 feet as I like to hit the target not Aunt Bessy's Petunias in the field outside of town. Please check out my thread in The War Room where I have described in great detail how I build and run a Night Bombing Mission. I will be adding more about other types of Missions as I have time. I am also experimenting with this new version as IMHO it is more historically accurate with respect to mission results and events than the original. [8D]

Regards,
KayBay

[Jeldren]

I Bomb at maximum altitude with B-17 , B-24 , Mosquitos at night. Lancasters go in at 16k-max altitude depending on the target. Daylight
raids close to the coast fly at 20k. Deep raids fly at 32k altitude.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Well, I fly the traditional aircraft of BC and I fly them at 10,000 feet and I get a 5:1 to 10:1 Kill / Loss ratio when running Night Bombing Strikes.

Daylight Strikes I get about a 1:1 to 1:2 Kill / Loss ratio when running Daylight Strategic Bombing Strikes utilizing the traditional aircraft and flying at about 20,000 feet.

I dont fly at 30,000+ because that is unrealistic and very Ahistoric. There is also a tremendous decline in accuracy of bombing above 20,000 feet especially early in the war. Historical Daylight Precision Bombing altitudes are 18,000 to 24,000 feet for typical historical strikes. Some specific strikes were flown much lower and not until much later were they flown higher, with some specific exceptions. More like 24 to 27,000, they wanted to stay over 20 K as much as they could, as they knew they were into the best preforence range for the LW if under 20 K (for what ever reason, the Raids on Aug 17th, were set for around 18 K and everybody had a fit) (but would change, based on weather/clouds and what nots)

For Night Bombing I keep it below 15,000 feet as I like to hit the target not Aunt Bessy's Petunias in the field outside of town. Please check out my thread in The War Room where I have described in great detail how I build and run a Night Bombing Mission. I will be adding more about other types of Missions as I have time. I am also experimenting with this new version as IMHO it is more historically accurate with respect to mission results and events than the original. [8D]

I would try pushing it up to 18-20 K for BC, 15 is just too low, the old joke was the Lancs and Hallies, loved to have the Strilings flying the mission with them, as they knew it was going to be a easy mission, all the Flak and fighters would be down low with the Strilings
Regards,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

but again, do what you feel works best for you, that is what makes it fun

[zoul310]

I wouldn't mind some more squads of BIV or BXVI Mossies. I would phase out the Stirlings, not all, for Mossies.
Production level for them is very low though.
I also use the 3 PFF detachments in intruder like mode. I launch them at 17.59. Low flying and bombing Nachtjad airfields. Incendiaries like planes !

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: zoul310

I wouldn't mind some more squads of BIV or BXVI Mossies. I would phase out the Stirlings, not all, for Mossies.
Production level for them is very low though.
I also use the 3 PFF detachments in intruder like mode. I launch them at 17.59. Low flying and bombing Nachtjad airfields. Incendiaries like planes !

Zoul310;

I DO make more Mossie units! Yes, it does require patience.
I find that Mossie casualities are very low -- usually due to crashes -- so an additional unit per month can be made. Early '44 you can make two per month.
1x with Moss B.XVI and one the old Moss B.IV. Near the end of '44 all Mossie Squadrons will be B.XVI.

I select one or two good experienced BC heavy squadrons from each Group and convert them to Mosquitos. That combined with 8th Group's I'll have 16 Mosquito squadrons max.
Then I send 4 squadrons per day, er... night! On three days rest, low loses & high maintainablity, it keeps morale very high.

Berlin gets at least 1 sqdn every night, sometimes all 4 sqdns.

TS

[zoul310]

I'm going to follow your strategy. Low cost and very effective for the number of planes involved.
G

[TechSgt]

As someone said elsewhere...

"Don't change the 617 Squadron!"

Don't change your "best" Squadrons to Mossie. Let these gentlemen be your pathfinders/lead units.
As experience increases one of these units will be almost as good as the daylight boys in taking out individual factories.

TS

[Baron von Beer]

For BOB German night fighters, I noticed they list bomb loads, 10-12 50kg bombs.&nbsp; I understand the historical use of these, but haven't seen them used in game. Is this just leftover/non-implemented equipment?[/align]

[Golden Bear]

617 sqn has other uses than pathfinder. Very valuable, very special.

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

For BOB German night fighters, I noticed they list bomb loads, 10-12 50kg bombs.  I understand the historical use of these, but haven't seen them used in game. Is this just leftover/non-implemented equipment?[/align]

Baron;

In TOH, the P-61's were the same way. I don't remember them "bombing" during night intruder missions. However, there were a couple of Moss F/B night units that would strafe anything and everything if the moon was above 20%. I don't see these in BtR.

I havn't played deep enough into BtR '43 campaign to see if there has been changes to the P-61's.

TS

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

617 sqn has other uses than pathfinder. Very valuable, very special.

Bear;

As the war progresses, some of the other high experienced squadrons, will get into the high 70's or low 80's in exp. They become "special", but no where as good as the 617. My feeling is there must be some code action going on. [;)]

TS

[Hard Sarge]

nothing in the code for 617, other then the fact they carry a very big bomb

fighterbombers on Inturder missions, will drop bombs

I not really sure how that works any more (I think all of the NF type units, fly nightfighters now)

(some of these units were kind of ruff, to work out where they belonged, you could have a flight of Mossies, flying over the Bay of Biscay, looking for Ju 88 or Subs, another flight doing a ranger mission over France, and then that night a couple of planes would be flying over England on night defence missions, while another couple would be flying a Intruder mission, so the same squadron in real life, would be in game life, a Fighter, a Fighterbomber, a Level Bomber, a Intruder and or a Nightfighter all at the same time, game only works with one)