Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW?

[Creeper]

ORIGINAL: JapLance

I'd really like to have the 110's in BoB capable of doing sweeps. As you point out, they did it in Poland and France, so they could have done it again over England. I really see no point in keeping the player from using them this way if they want to. Germans stopped using Stukas over England after a few days, but we can continue using them, if we want to. Let the player decide.

That's exactly my position. [:)]
Let the player decide...

[HMSWarspite]

I think you may be missing the point. Reading between the lines, the implication is that they break the game... maybe because of the 'planes wont divert issue'. Although I am surprised, because a guaranteed 110 cap over an airfield sounds like points on a stick to me:). Thus I suspect they took it out cos it is a game breaker...

[Lanconic]

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

I think you may be missing the point. Reading between the lines, the implication is that they break the game... maybe because of the 'planes wont divert issue'. Although I am surprised, because a guaranteed 110 cap over an airfield sounds like points on a stick to me:). Thus I suspect they took it out cos it is a game breaker...

That is not the only change...try this.....

Use the American escorts to strafe a LW airfield at say 5k
Now use the ME109 to do the same to say Biggin Hill.

I can tell you right now, there is no comparison. None at all.
And yet its the same mission, w the same tactics.

A bit odd I should say

[Hard Sarge]

you kind of need targets to do something

[Creeper]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

... it has been weaken, I am one of the masters at doing this in the old game, I once knocked down 71 out of 72 planes coming in to land (island of Vis, it was pretty) no way are you going to get that many now, as I said, it may look like it, but there is a report loop, that makes it look like much more losses are being taken then really are

Sarge, are there any plans in the pipeline to correct the report loop, that bluff us to shoot down more aircrafts as we really do? I don't like screen messages that tell not the truth... [&:]

[Hard Sarge]

we got to find it, I have had it on my list from the start (that was a old bugaboo from the old game I hated) Harley still has not found it

(but he has been working on other stuff)

if we can find it, yes

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Thank you for the extensive tactical tips. I am not claiming to be playing the best game, and these will no doubt help.

But you didn't address my question regarding the inability of German planes to redirect to another airfield. Once they are in RTB mode they are clay pigeons. And while your suggestions may help, that does take away the fact that how the program operates by not allowing some sort of initiative on the part of German aircraft makes no sense.

What I suggest (since coding the ability to return to different bases is not likely) is a "design for effect" tweak to improve the defensive capabilities of landing aircraft, or decrease the effectiveness of the attackers to less than 80-90 percent effectiveness, which is what I am recording.

I am not pushing a 100% elimination of the ability of sweeps to down aircraft in the pattern, but in BOB that is exactly what the program does by prohibiting the 110's from doing so. (yes the 109s can, but they don't have the legs to do so very effectivily) And as I noted, this design "cheat" to stop the 110 was admitted by Harley, because it was a "game wrecker".

So you are saying that the game is "working as designed" with a cheat to help the RAF. Yet you see no reason to question the same effect in BTR? They both use the same game engine. *That* is what I request an answer on. Yes, you are under no obligation to do so, but it makes me wonder why you wouldn't want to explain such an inconsistent design decision.

Nicholas,
You are correct. How allowing the Me110 to sweep is a "game wrecker" and somehow allowing the Allied forces to do it at will in Btr isn't cuts right to the heart of the problem.

As it stands now, the logical solution is what Gary allowed the LW player to do in USAAF-allow each squadron upon take-off to designate a different landing base.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Creeper

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

... it has been weaken, I am one of the masters at doing this in the old game, I once knocked down 71 out of 72 planes coming in to land (island of Vis, it was pretty) no way are you going to get that many now, as I said, it may look like it, but there is a report loop, that makes it look like much more losses are being taken then really are

Sarge, are there any plans in the pipeline to correct the report loop, that bluff us to shoot down more aircrafts as we really do? I don't like screen messages that tell not the truth... [&:]

Imaginary conversation with the LW boys in the control tower:

Hans:"Don't you think we should inform our planes their field is under heavy attack and to land somewhere else?"

Deitrich:"Nah, these first 71 planes weren't given fair warning, why should the other planes be given chance?"


Yes, it is as silly as that.

[Farfarer61]

In BTR my Allied Sweeps are fatal to the Allied fighters - not the LW. They dive below 13K to attack the AF and get slaughtered. Even if the fields are active, with planes known to be on the ground the refuelling, zero kills are achieved. Very occasionally, "landing kills" are obtained. I have tried varying Traget and Patrol points, but the fighters always dive into the flak and get creamed. What am I doing wrong?

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

In BTR my Allied Sweeps are fatal to the Allied fighters - not the LW. They dive below 13K to attack the AF and get slaughtered. Even if the fields are active, with planes known to be on the ground the refuelling, zero kills are achieved. Very occasionally, "landing kills" are obtained. I have tried varying Traget and Patrol points, but the fighters always dive into the flak and get creamed. What am I doing wrong?

It sounds like you are trying to sweep airbases which have a significant amount of Flak. Don't sweep those bases. You can tell which bases have said flak by doing recon flights in the days prior to the sweeps.

[Hard Sarge]

also, don't send too much airpower, the more planes attacking, the better the AA gets (one squadron may slip in and slip out with out much damage, but by the time the 2nd or 3rd squadron makes there runs, the AA is awake and fully manned)

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: Lanconic

That is not the only change...try this.....

Use the American escorts to strafe a LW airfield at say 5k
Now use the ME109 to do the same to say Biggin Hill.

I can tell you right now, there is no comparison. None at all.
And yet its the same mission, w the same tactics.

A bit odd I should say

Not really look at the fire power of a P-47 and compare to an early war 109. A Typhoon or Tempest should be equally deadly. Also look at the number of planes on a field, a single RAF sqn will have about 16 planes, give or take. The LW is organised into Gruppen of 36 plus in most cases.

[vimconfused]

Extremely frustrated. You spend many hours building up the skill of your gruppen over many air to air engagements, then you lose them shot down trying to land or still on the ground. OK, I am not arguing against harsh reality, but it isn't much *fun* either is it?

So I'm still a newbie but I'd like to know how you can avoid losing so many men and so much materiel to a relatively small investment from the Allies. In my case three squadrons of RAF Mustangs have pretty much decimated two of my best gruppen, and I've lost several top aces too. So next time I'll keep a reserve gruppe to attack the enemy fighters hanging around over the neighbouring airfield, and I'm not arguing this isn't a valid tactic for the Allies. BUT if Allied fighters didn't even bother to escort bombers and spent their game strafing and patrolling my airfields the game would be over very quickly... and surely that can't be realistic.

What about the airfield AA? In my case I had piled a vast amount of flak into the particular airfield to defend against fighter attack and it did nothing. Fired once at the strafing planes but did nothing against those hanging around waiting to shoot down the landing aircraft. *Surely* if an Allied fighter is in range of shooting down landing aircraft its in range of the airfield flak. The airfield flak should be shooting all the time!

I've only just started the game, but this is by far the most frustrating part for me. I guess I can mitigate the effects a bit by even closer micromanagement, but it only takes a couple of squadrons to slip through to do disproportionate damage.

[Tuk]

You'll find plenty more to frustrate you I'm sure. Try playing allies in a PBEM and you won't have a clue what's going on. Raid composition, altitude, clouds, accurate damage reports, even the types and sides of planes, all will be a mystery as 109s look like Wellingtons and Forts like Ju 88s. Then the replay will just crash in a busy night raid. Shocking and frankly shameful the game was ever released like this... and presumably twice.
 
As for the airfield flak, the longest range light flak only shoots to 7500' I think. Tried adding heavies? That should hit targets loitering.

[vimconfused]

I guess I'll have to look forward to more frustrating things

The point about the flak was I don't think it was firing at the loitering a/c at all, and there is certainly a large amount of all types at the particular airfield.

[Michael T]

My sentiments exactly Tuk. I am getting very tired of Matrix releasing half cooked games. EIA was the worst, then I struck TOW which wasn't much better. Now this. I really like the bones of the game, and appreciate the good work done by HS and others but way too many unresolved issues once again that should never have gotten past a play test in PBEM. Obviously the game was never tested in PBEM. The manual is a joke. I am looking forward to WITE but I fear another bug riddled half finished game.... 

[Thales99]

I'm happy with most aspects of the game, but I too got the impression that the ground strafing routine is producing unrealistic results while playing the BTR44 campaign on the German side.

As I wrote in another thread, I doubt that when studying biographies of German (or any nation's) fighter pilots you would find too many cases of "killed while being strafed on the ground". Yes, it happened, but not to a large percentage of the pilot cadre. Within the game I repeatedly experienced days where *more than half* of my pilot losses happened on the ground. And this after retreating all units as far east as feasible and stacking their airfields with AA.

I remember a single strafing attack on an airfield north of Hamburg causing 21 pilots KIA and 25 WIA (out of 2 gruppen). Please show me just one historical strafing attack during the bombing campaign that caused comparable pilot casualties.

Normally I try to anticipate strafing attempts early enough and scramble all planes, which works out well. Sometimes the raid is already too close and I know that I have to sit it out. However, there is no way to tell your pilots to stay safe, even if enough time is remaining - all planes are automatically modelled to be manned and each plane hit on the ground may result in a pilot KIA.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with the aircraft losses, but the amount of pilot casualties just seems wrong to me.

[Derfel]

I think you should use a game exploit to combat a game exploit:

When the attack come in the airfield, change aicraft model, then zero pilots should be killed.
However you will have a group that will not take part in this day combat and will need 2 -3 days of rest to get the aircraft made ready and refuelled.

Talk to your opponent and get him to abstain from straffing your airfields to death or use this exploit above.

Just keep in mind a game should be fun for both parts.

[Nicholas Bell]

ORIGINAL: Derfel

I think you should use a game exploit to combat a game exploit:

When the attack come in the airfield, change aicraft model, then zero pilots should be killed.
However you will have a group that will not take part in this day combat and will need 2 -3 days of rest to get the aircraft made ready and refuelled.

Talk to your opponent and get him to abstain from straffing your airfields to death or use this exploit above.

I don't see how you can do this - how do you access the squadron to change its aircraft type during the reaction phase?

The only sure way to avoid the problem is not to be caught on the ground. Harley did mention many months ago about considering making it possible for units to stand down so pilots would not be in the planes (and the planes could not fly). This would not solve the problem of losing most of a gruppe if caught on alert and still on the ground. Like shooting down planes in the landing pattern, I think the results are too extreme and the code could use some fine-tuning.

[Derfel]

You do it by going into Campaign Summary, find your unit and change aircraft type in the detail view.


You can indeed consider it alike to stand down a unit. Just use it with care as it is an exploit of the code and your opponent wouldn't like it at all [;)] However an AI does not cry foul!
So IF you are going to use it against a human opponent please get acceptance first!