Economy woes

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Jim D Burns
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: elliotg Your freighters don't always have jobs to do, so having them hanging around parked at your colonies is ok.
Hmm, I just had a thought. Is it possible the private freighters are all queuing at the same time for an upgrade of their engines or something and their sudden lack of activity causes income to tank? Then they can’t afford to pay for the upgrade so they get stuck sitting and waiting for income that will never appear now?

If this is the issue, it can probably be fixed by only allowing the AI to queue one ship of each class at a time. Once it finishes a new ship can queue. That way most freighters stay busy at all times.

If it isn’t the issue, please ignore my random thoughts. [;)]

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Webbco
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Webbco »

I can imagine this making sense since I just had a couple of newly discovered techs just before my economy was playing up. But I'm still seeing trade ships fly all over the place. Hmmm.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

The only time a new tech could cause issues is if it's incorporated into all your new designs, which you then decide to build a lot of, before you have the resources required by the new tech. That's not a typical thing though.

A few more tips - I just ran a test game, got to 15 colonies and made sure to do some things to make the economy tank (overstretched on colonization, overbuilt all kinds of ships and bases, didn't make any particular resources a priority for construction). I was able to recover by doing the following:

1. Took control of some colony tax rates and adjusted them, including on new colonies, to generate some additional revenue without creating too much discontent (note that you need to balance tax rate increases against compliance and happiness, which is why it's often best to leave this automated, but in an economic crisis taking control can help as the automation always likes to keep new colony taxes very low).

2. Scrapped some bases I had discovered and taken control of but which weren't doing much for me. Scrapped all but one construction ship (they are quite expensive). Scrapped a few destroyers.

3. Traded away some technology to improve some alien race attitudes to form some additional free trade pacts and push an existing free trade up to a mutual defense pact. Traded some other techs for straight cash to help the bank account.

4. Found one strategic resource using the expansion planner that was fairly high in price due to supply being below demand and using the cash I gained from tech trades, built another mining station to add another source of supply, which helped reduce the price on that.

5. Kept my fleet parked so that it wouldn't use up fuel. Used Escorts on automation for minor tasks.

6. Traded for more galaxy and territory maps to open up new sources of strategic and luxury goods for my private sector.

The combination of these things got me back into the black in about 15 minutes of play on 2x speed. As my colonies continued to develop, my position grew more comfortable. This is not to say there couldn't be a bug, but if there is one there it seems manageable with careful play and fairly subtle in its effects. If you see this happen to you again, please do upload a save as that will be the best way for us to figure out what you are seeing.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

Forgot to mention that in going through my ships I also found a few that had been damaged and were effectively adrift. Rather than paying for the fuel and time to send a construction ship to repair them, I simply scrapped them to save money.
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Webbco
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Webbco »

This tips might be invaluable, thanks Erik. Could I possibly recommend to put these tips at the top if they help people? There seem to be quite a few people struggling with economy-related issues, although I wouldn't want it to be at the expense of finding out for oneself how to stabilise the economy.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Xmudder »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The only time a new tech could cause issues is if it's incorporated into all your new designs, which you then decide to build a lot of, before you have the resources required by the new tech. That's not a typical thing though.

A few more tips - I just ran a test game, got to 15 colonies and made sure to do some things to make the economy tank (overstretched on colonization, overbuilt all kinds of ships and bases, didn't make any particular resources a priority for construction). I was able to recover by doing the following:
Why would too many colonies put you in the red?

I've uploaded my economy went to hell savefile at the ftp. Also check out the kraltors that outrun my ships after eating a colony ship.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Webbco »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The only time a new tech could cause issues is if it's incorporated into all your new designs, which you then decide to build a lot of, before you have the resources required by the new tech. That's not a typical thing though.
If you've set it to Automate though, doesn't the AI automatically upgrade ships to the latest possible tech? E.g. If you discover a new extractor, the AI calls in all miners and upgrades them with this new piece of equipment?
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Xmudder Why would too many colonies put you in the red?
Well, they request and consume luxury resources and put an additional load on your existing private trade fleets and your security forces, which can consume more fuel as well. Typically if you have troop recruitment automated, each colony will get at least one troop unit built there as well, which requires upkeep.
I've uploaded my economy went to hell savefile at the ftp. Also check out the kraltors that outrun my ships after eating a colony ship.
Thanks, I will take a look and see if I can figure this one out.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Webbco If you've set it to Automate though, doesn't the AI automatically upgrade ships to the latest possible tech? E.g. If you discover a new extractor, the AI calls in all miners and upgrades them with this new piece of equipment?
Automating ship design means that the AI will always keep your designs updated with all the latest technology. That means that new ships being built or ships being retrofitted will always have the benefit of being as up to date as possible. However, the AI will not retrofit your ships or bases without your instruction. That's something you still need to do. That's why adding in a new tech to your designs will not create a resource problem generally, unless you embark on a widespread retrofitting or if the AI happens to built a ton of ships based on the new design as soon as it's ready (but before you have the resources for it).
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Webbco »

Thanks Erik, that makes sense [:)]
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

xmudder,

I loaded up your save and took a look. In short order, I was able to return you to profitability and I've uploaded a new save starting with "Mudd" to the same FTP location. If you want, you can download it and keep playing. Here's what I did:

1. You had a lot more ships and bases than you needed, particularly with the additional Democracy maintenance penalty. You had nine construction ships, two medium spaceports under construction, a Capital Ship and so on. I started scrapping these (sorry about the Capital Ship, we probably could have kept that one, but it was over 1k maintenance on its own), retiring them at the nearest shipyard where I could. I also scrapped those that were still under construction in areas where you didn't need more. I also scrapped a few of your destroyers in your fleet as you are not currently at war or at serious risk of imminent war. You had two industrial research stations and a monitoring station, I decided we only needed one industrial research station, etc. I used the Ships and Bases screen with the different drop downs combined with the Empire Summary screen to figure out where the money was going and which ships and bases were not necessary.

2. Your private economy probably had more mining stations than it absolutely needed, so its upkeep was fairly high too and profit was low enough that it wasn't ordering many new ships. By slowing down/scrapping future construction and the excess construction ships, I slowed things down on that front to give them a chance to catch up.

3. You hadn't really done much on the diplomacy front. Through technology trading, I was able to convince the race that was positively disposed to you to form a Mutual Defense pact. I then traded for galaxy maps everywhere I could, which revealed a few more races that were amenable to free trade. I continued this until I'd discovered all that I could through this method and had greater knowledge of local resource locations and plenty of free trade agreements.

4. Your troop upkeep was pretty high, so I disbanded troops where there was more than one unit per planet and disbanded half of your "strike force" loaded on your fleet.

5. Your relations were good enough that I trimmed down to one agent, your most skilled one and set that one to counter intelligence. If you have any issues in that area you can recruit up again.

After all this, it didn't take long for things to start turning a profit again. Let me know if this helps.

I'm also curious how much of that was due to your own construction/build decisions and how much was based on AI suggestions or AI automation? If the latter, we may need to make the AI automation more conservative as far as spending goes.

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Hyfrydle
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Hyfrydle »

I am uploading my save as I type it is "The Vandragors".
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Mus »

I was able to slash everything drastically but the economy on my main planet still crashed putting me over 100,000 credits in debt before I was able to get my income in the black.

The crash in my economy seemed to be based on the "GDP value" of the planet in question tanking and I am unclear what this is based on. By the time I was in the black I had more than the planet required in 6 categories of luxury items, during the crash I had zero.

Still noticing an awful lot of idle merchant ships, particularly at the planet that tanked. Do you want my save game?

Also not sure if this is related to automation, I had 11 colonies in 4 systems I think, way more than alien races I was encountering in the middle of my crash. Could be the colonization AI going on an economic death ride?
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Webbco »

I noticed that even with 15 colonies, my home planet seems to hold 97% of my GDP, the others...barely anything. Seems a bit weird.
Hyfrydle
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Hyfrydle »

I just ran a game on full automation with no input from myself and the economy has now crashed. Currently -28409 balance with a -58095 deficit.
Xmudder
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Xmudder »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

xmudder,

I loaded up your save and took a look. In short order, I was able to return you to profitability and I've uploaded a new save starting with "Mudd" to the same FTP location. If you want, you can download it and keep playing. Here's what I did:

1. You had a lot more ships and bases than you needed, particularly with the additional Democracy maintenance penalty. You had nine construction ships, two medium spaceports under construction, a Capital Ship and so on. I started scrapping these (sorry about the Capital Ship, we probably could have kept that one, but it was over 1k maintenance on its own), retiring them at the nearest shipyard where I could. I also scrapped those that were still under construction in areas where you didn't need more. I also scrapped a few of your destroyers in your fleet as you are not currently at war or at serious risk of imminent war. You had two industrial research stations and a monitoring station, I decided we only needed one industrial research station, etc. I used the Ships and Bases screen with the different drop downs combined with the Empire Summary screen to figure out where the money was going and which ships and bases were not necessary.

2. Your private economy probably had more mining stations than it absolutely needed, so its upkeep was fairly high too and profit was low enough that it wasn't ordering many new ships. By slowing down/scrapping future construction and the excess construction ships, I slowed things down on that front to give them a chance to catch up.

3. You hadn't really done much on the diplomacy front. Through technology trading, I was able to convince the race that was positively disposed to you to form a Mutual Defense pact. I then traded for galaxy maps everywhere I could, which revealed a few more races that were amenable to free trade. I continued this until I'd discovered all that I could through this method and had greater knowledge of local resource locations and plenty of free trade agreements.

4. Your troop upkeep was pretty high, so I disbanded troops where there was more than one unit per planet and disbanded half of your "strike force" loaded on your fleet.

5. Your relations were good enough that I trimmed down to one agent, your most skilled one and set that one to counter intelligence. If you have any issues in that area you can recruit up again.

After all this, it didn't take long for things to start turning a profit again. Let me know if this helps.

I'm also curious how much of that was due to your own construction/build decisions and how much was based on AI suggestions or AI automation? If the latter, we may need to make the AI automation more conservative as far as spending goes.
I had 6 agents, I cut it to 3. The AI only used 2 of them at a time anyway. All the agents and ground troops were built by the AI, not me. Everything else was built by the ai, with me saying "yes" except for colony ships. That capital ship was a goodie I found, I hope it turned in some nice tech boost when you retired it.

Looks like I need to be more active on the diplomatic front then.

The AI built 2 high tech and 1 industry base in the same star, putting me over my limit tech wise. And 2 defense starbases that I should have said no to.

How do you disband troops?

How long did you play it? that game went from like -20k to -40k a turn in a few minutes when I was playing it. I'll give it a try.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Mus I was able to slash everything drastically but the economy on my main planet still crashed putting me over 100,000 credits in debt before I was able to get my income in the black.
I'm wondering how you guys are getting so far in debt, all I've seen so far in the saves is over-building of various high upkeep items.

I wonder if corruption is also playing a role here in terms of reducing primary planet income before your colonies are up to speed?
Still noticing an awful lot of idle merchant ships, particularly at the planet that tanked. Do you want my save game?
Merchant ships can be idle normally at times, if they are all idle it would indicate some kind of resource problem perhaps (fuel maybe?). Feel free to upload your save, the more we have the better the info we have.
Also not sure if this is related to automation, I had 11 colonies in 4 systems I think, way more than alien races I was encountering in the middle of my crash. Could be the colonization AI going on an economic death ride?
Well if you colonize quickly before your new colonies contribute to the economy it can drive up costs, but so far what I've seen is manageable. It sounds like in some cases the automated AI is suggesting too much base and ship construction for your economies though.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Xmudder That capital ship was a goodie I found, I hope it turned in some nice tech boost when you retired it.
Yes, you got a very nice tech bonus when I retired that one.
How do you disband troops?
On the troops screen, click on the unit and then click on disband.
How long did you play it? that game went from like -20k to -40k a turn in a few minutes when I was playing it. I'll give it a try.
Not long honestly, probably took me 10-15 minutes to turn things around.

It's good to know that you were responding to suggested builds, that indicates that in some cases that AI is steering new players wrong and over-building. I hadn't seen that before but it's clearly happening so we'll see what we can do to tweak that back.
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Webbco I noticed that even with 15 colonies, my home planet seems to hold 97% of my GDP, the others...barely anything. Seems a bit weird.
That must be pretty early on still, the other colonies do start pulling their weight once they have some time to develop.
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Hyfrydle
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RE: Economy woes

Post by Hyfrydle »

I think the problem might be getting the luxury resources to enable the colonies to develop.
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