Battles Need A Lot Of Work A lot

[Flaviusx]

Next game I think I'm going to redesign my ships so they have longer legs and greater fuel capacity. The default designs just don't feel like they've got enough range, except on explorers.
 
 

[ASHBERY76]

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
I started deploying a RS ship at a gas giant, but then I couldn't get any ship to resupply at this ship... Thus I put the RS ship into the fleet and *it seemed to me* that it shared its fuel with the other ships, extending their range. Maybe I misunderstood how it's supposed to work..

No.The resupply ship is really just a base that sits on gas giants or gas clouds so your fleets can attack long range targets...You cannot deploy them on frozen gas giants bare in mind,which is not mentioned on the pedia.

[Nemo84]

ORIGINAL: malkuth74

Like I said going to try another game but I don't see the fuel issue being any different. And this was only a 400 star game. With 5 empires.

Maybe thats the problem, I don't have enough empires going so we all get way to big a bloated. I will try a map with a lot more empires and see what happens.

One thing I did notice is that the usual learning approach of smallest galaxy with only one or two opponents is not a good idea in this game. The game mechanics work so much better when the galaxy is more crowded.

So are you saying we should have resupply ships in the actual fleet? I was under the impression that they only work when deployed in a Gas cloud with the + mark. What good is having them in the fleet if they can't deploy? Do they have some sort of refuel option inside them that maybe im missing?

Also if this is the case, then the AI does not build them into your fleets or theirs.

I don't think that's what he means. I've noticed habitable systems are rather rare in this game. At least 2/3 of the systems have a couple of mining stations at most. So that is lots of empty space to hide supply ships in. I haven't played one single game long enough to do more than some basic experiments, but this is how I think a long-range deep strike op works:

You scan the area around your intended target systems for gas-rich systems either unoccupied or with small mining operations. You send to each of those systems one or more combat fleets and an escorted supply ship (with long sensor range), and make sure they're cleansed of enemy assets. These systems are your supply depots and fallback areas. Deploy the supply ships, refuel and then jump the fleets to their first set of targets deep into enemy territory. Kill targets, and jump back to supply systems. Rinse, repeat.

Erik, how likely is the AI to counter this with his own fleets, if a system with only a few mining stations is attacked?

[solops]

Take fuel out of the game. I don't want to count and micro-manage beans. The same goes for fuel. This eliminates a huge, multi-headed problem. Simulate logistical support in another fashion.

[Stilletto]

I think fuel is a big issue, but I like the fact that it's hard to send ships far away. One big thing that would help would be ships in "orbit" stay with the planet while the planet itself orbits the sun and the ship uses zero fuel. That way I can worry about fuel going to ships heading system to system and not the ships on guard duty. No, I don't use automation in any way. It's against my religion.

[jfpOne23]

I agree with Solops. Give us the option to turn off "supply" for any newly started game. Q: Utilize Supply in this game? Checkbox: No. Problem solved.

It is my belief that Star Faring species would have solved the problems of ship self-sufficiency via on-board equipment and a handy Gas Giant well before reaching their first colonizable star system. Us Humans are already 1/2 way there before we have even colonized one of our own planets or moons. Imagine what we learn in another 100 years? Fueling at Jupiter, and drinking water from an Earth orbiting chunk of ice towed back from the rings of Saturn.

Supply should be an option for added or lessened complexity in this game.

[malkuth74]

I really don't want them to get rid of the fuel thing. Because once it works right it can be a very strategic thing in a game. IE take out an enemies means to fuel his fleets and his fleet stall is always a problem in any war.

The problem in the game is that it to micromanagement right now. Way to much work has to go into keeping your fleets supplied it should be automated as long as you have the Transports moving and the gas miners going. It should all be automated.

To stop ships from traveling where they can't should be a range limit on the ships. Which works in most games.

[theonlystd]

Part of the problem could be the size of fleets.. Make fleets to big and with bigger ships.. They seem to drain space ports or gas mining places even pretty easily if you one has a large concentration of ships...

[henri51]

It has been pointed out before that space warfare is really 3-D naval warfare. Long-distance support is best exemplified by the Pacific War, where both the US and Japanese major (if not main)problem was supporting fleets over long distances.

In the case of the US, this was solved by preliminary establishment of supply bases in Australia and Noumea, and protecting the supply corridor to there from the US (which the Japanese made little effort to counteract - a major strategic error).

So it seems reasonable to me that establishment of supply bases for faraway operations should be in the game. But the question is, given the ideology of the game, how to implement this without demanding too much micromanagement, and how to make sure that the AI is not crippled by the feature. From what I am reading, it is my impression that neither of these two conditions have been addressed satisfactorily.

Since I don't have the game (yet) I could be wrong about the above, and I don't have any solution to propose, but as has been suggested, perhaps simply replacing fuel by a range limit for ships (a la Galciv) could have simulated this.

I am holding out until this issue becomes clearer, because it could be a real game breaker...

Henri

[jfpOne23]

I wasn't saying to eliminate supply. I also have a love/hate relationship with the well implemented logistical side of war gaming. And I agree that it's very rewarding to manage a "Fleet on the Move" better than your opponent does. And see the effects of careful stockpiling and planning.

I'm just saying, turn it on, or turn it off as you wish. Simple really. Make it an option like how many star systems you want or how many species in your particular customizations at game start.

[Krafty]

I think it works fine. As far as I can tell automated ships go about their business refueling themselves, in invasions ive had plenty of luck with resupply ships (had to redesign the default one to let in bigger ships with more docking bays, couldnt fit to refuel) also the default designs are really bad on fuel usage, theyre heavy, have 5-6 engines, and only 2 fuel bays...I quickly in a large game or if I have long distance between colonies/free trade partners, add up to 5 fuel storage, for the long journeys.

Im trying to figure out what the energy collectors do? I cant not use a fission reactor, cant save the design with errors, and why make excess energy?

[EisenHammer]

I agree with Ashbery76... the game needs an auto refuel option and slower fuel consumption.

[theonlystd]

ORIGINAL: jfpOne23

I wasn't saying to eliminate supply. I also have a love/hate relationship with the well implemented logistical side of war gaming. And I agree that it's very rewarding to manage a "Fleet on the Move" better than your opponent does. And see the effects of careful stockpiling and planning.

I'm just saying, turn it on, or turn it off as you wish. Simple really. Make it an option like how many star systems you want or how many species in your particular customizations at game start.

If they do that then they'll have to mess with the AI so it puts up a competitive game and such.

Since their would be no restraints on how far you can attack and on your fleet sizes. The ai would need to use a totally different kind of tactics.

[cobra13]

Another vote for auto refuel or the ability for auto refuel to work properly. IE if there were a option to auto refuel fleets it would be perfect. You would still be command of the fleets as the Admiral but the lower grade officers are taking care of refuel and resupply.

[mllange]

You have to remember there are two different types of fuel required (depending on the engine tech of the ship design). I once made the mistake of deploying my refueller on a gas giant that didn't have the right resource type of fuel - the result of course was that the refueller couldn't resupply my fleet (or itself) and it ended up un-deploying and moving away to refuel. That might be part of the issue here.

That said, I agree with the original post in most aspects, it is a management hassle as the game progresses. I really dislike the fact that fleets don't work well if they aren't automated. Automated fleets seem to form and then sit without engaging, and then fight one battle and promptly disband. I just haven't had much success employing them. I would prefer the ability to create fleets and then provide them with orders that they would carry out. Right now if you provide manual orders to a fleet it is very hit or miss as to whether they will carry them out.

[JaguarUSF]

It took me a couple of games to figure out what to do, but I have two manually controlled fleets (AI Fleet Organization is off, and automate is off for each and every ship assigned to these two fleets) that I use for invasions/defense, about 50% of my total military (everyone else is on automate). I deploy a reupply ship to a gas giant near the area of interest, refuel everybody at the deployed ship, and then alternate attacks using my two fleets. If you want to manually control ships, you have to turn automation off and refuel yourself. A helpful tip is right-clicking on any ship in a fleet and choosing the "refuel nearest" command.

[lancer]

Goodaye,

I find that the long range strike / resupply / fuel usage model that the game presents to you is pretty good and very reminiscent of WW2 in the Pacific as noted elsewhere.

Once you get the hang of it it's a lot of fun and very satisfying. Dumbing it down would be a mistake as it's one of the strong points of the game.

However I can see that it's an area prone to misunderstandings. Lots of people who buy this game probably haven't had to deal with any of this type of stuff before and hence a lot of confusion and complaints that the system is 'broken'.

Perhaps a short 'how-to-guide' would help to cut down on the confusion and also highlight another aspect of the game.

Cheers,
Lancer

[VarekRaith]

Auto-fuel option for manually controlled ships would be welcome. However, I do not want fuel consumption of ships to be altered, as that would make fuel rather meaningless...

[Wade1000]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If you have manual control over the fleet, it should not be disbanded, that should only happen if the fleet formation is automated as well.

Are you using resupply ships with your fleets? I'm able to launch some pretty deep strikes without a problem when using resupply. One thing about DW though is that it is supposed to be hard to send your fleet across the galaxy and support it. It's easy to defend your own area, harder to plan and support an attack elsewhere.

I agree with that. That's part of why it's called "Distant" Worlds. Attacking a far away empire should be very logistcal involved, though, not frustrating in a game. Everything in a game should be balanced also without forgetting about fun factor.

I agree with auto refuel for ships manually controlled. Perhaps, also, tweaking the overall fuel consumption rate a bit, not drastically of course. Maybe, the developers would have the best idea for that part.

[mllange]

Tonight I created a support/staging collier (refueller & resupply) ship to support my attack fleet. I checked all of the engine types for the ship designs in my attack fleet to ensure they all required hydrogen for fuel - check! I then double-checked my collier ship to ensure it's engine type required hydrogen for fuel - check! Finally, I picked out a nice hydrogen gas giant cloud 2/3rds of the way toward the pirate base I planned to destroy and ordered my collier ship to deploy at the hydrogen gas giant cloud. The collier ship traveled to the cloud, reduced engines to impulse power and crawled toward the center of the cloud to deploy... and then promptly changed it's order to 'refuel at Planet XXX' and started back out of the hydrogen gas giant cloud moving toward Planet XXX. Argh! I tried to change the ship's order back to deploy several times to no avail. The best laid plans of mice and men... After some time the collier ship ran completely out of fuel on it's way to Planet XXX and was basically stuck in space moving at less than impulse power, a sitting duck.