List of Changes I would like to see

[Q.M]

Dead ground. The best cover you can get in open terrain. Cover from view and cover from direct fire.

A diagram based on the above excellent typing demo:

[Q.M]

Armour in defile. Survivability.

[STIENER]

ok.....#4 makes some sense to me now thats its explained, but theres a 2 story building on that map that one would think you would be able to shoot at from that position on the top edge of the raised road. the 2 story building is higher than the raised road. and theres still no LOS to it.

QM......how about a lesson in a/t gun survivability that pertains to the actual game of LSA. what do you do with your a/t guns in the game?

[Manu]

personnaly I use the flak and at guns in ambush position behind a house or an obstacle so it can take out ennemies who move in the line of sight of my guns. But it is true that the guns are very fragile (or the mortars are very powefull

[Q.M]

Hi Stiener.

Try to employ as a long range weapon. They have the guts to do it, just wait for the opportunity tgt to present itself at range. Close contact? Site in an indirect location, behind a structure etc, wait for the tgt to present itself and give it the money shot in the flank/ass.

If possible site in pairs with a reasonable distance between and fire in multiples at the ambush. The tit for tat fire can confuse the AI/opponent and expose a flank/weak spot. You may loose one but not both on a single engagement. Multiple armour? Hold you fire until the optimum tgt is presented, otherwise hunker down and watch intently. At the first hint of reaction fire both guns and pray...or hope your sprites have faith! Keep your eye on the remainder.

Single guns. Long range, good cover from view. Remember that good players or even the AI at time will always follow the golden rule of sending flank support (grunts) in with every armour asset. This means that your gun may be observed long before you get the opportunity to act.

Best practice? Enfilade from a defilade posn. Get behind cover and shoot the flank.

Always try to employ as a flank weapon, not head on, you will never win.

Always have a mortar ready to lay smoke. Always have grunts nearby. Dont forget that guns may attract mortar and off board support, be careful and dont crowd the gun emplacement with grunts etc as these will become collateral casualties in the event of retaliation.

Last hint. Never rely on your guns as the winning piece in your strategy. Employ as a tool but dont not rely implicitly on it to break or hold the opponent. Remember that a fantastic battle plan put into practice only last as long as it takes until the first shot is fired, after that?.......well history speaks for itself.

Others will have different strategies that work for them. Me? I dont use the guns unless I have to. I would rather draw the armour in and ambush with a close in weapon of choice. I prefer up close and personal contact. Close Combat that is [;)]

Hope this helps.

[xe5]

ORIGINAL: STIENER
3] why dont large caliber guns do any serious damage to a building and the occupants? if a building wood or masonry got hit by a HE 75 mm rd there would be bits every where!

The area circled in red on the image below is about as much damage as youd expect from a 75mm shell on a masonry bldg. The CC bldg with the stone rubble damage boxed in red is the also the damage from a 75mm shell. The CC damage rubbled 36 square meters of a 24 meter tall bldg to a debris pile 2 meters high.

Which example of a 75mm hit shows the most "serious damage to a building"?

If there were a dozen troops in that real bldg, I'd estimate their odds of survival from that lone 75mm hit would have been pretty high.

[STIENER]

thanks QM....couple more questions
1] do you find that the guns do not HIDE well in LSA? in buildings and woods and hedges etc or not hide at all?
2] do you find that 50 mm and less size guns do not find many large buildings to hide in in LSA
3] do you find that guns are easily spotted while there in an ambush situation?
4] do you find guns less usefull in LSA than in other CC games..WAR....GJS etc

thanks xe5
im betting thats a AP 75 mm shot and that the shrapnel inside the building in that area was deadly. whats a wooden building look like you think?
i was taking multiple shots from an 88 in variuos typs of buildings...i was taking hardly any casualties.
do you think LSA properly reflects building damage and casualtys??

[hikarumba]

ABOUT TERRAIN FEATURES
I have been having this issue too. (from STIENERS point #4.

In many instances I place a unit behind some cover only to find that I can not shoot from the position due to the lack of Line of Sight. It seems to me reasonable that if a squad is placed at the top edge of a piece of terrain, such as a raised road, that it would have a defensive benefit and also be able to shoot form the position.

I understand the explanation but this is not really the issue. The cases that I mention are when I can't fire at ANY distance, even distances that would not have that shadow effect for the line of sight.

I'm fairly new to the game. I've experimented with inching squads forward hoping to place them on the top edge or ridge line of the defensive sweet spot. I haven't been too successful with this so I'm guessing that it doesn't exist.


ABOUT GUNS

Also, I'd like to ask the best way to use guns. So far I've had such poor results with AT guns, Flak guns, etc that I'm not certain that they are worth the expense in terms of taking up a slot in the unit roster. They are destroyed within a minute after being spotted; by mortar or small arms fire.

Some buildings protect them but then reduce their field of fire to the point where in most cases they are easily avoided once their positions are known. ie. first time they fire. It may be that I am just missing something and the light will turn on when I catch on to the correct way to use them.

I've been at a loss as to how to position them effectively.

Thanks.

[emperor peter]

Some of my findings & thoughts:

Guns: If they fit I prefer to put them in buildings. The others, I try to hide in forests, if the spot is good they sometimes stay hidden. Ideal is an outgoing dark green line of fire.
Weapon pits are terrible, they offer no protection or concealment. They are worse than a grass field IMO. I try to avoid getting guns entrenched at all times.

Mortars and to some extent MG are very (too?) powerful. This is worsened by the fact that buildings seem to offer much less cover then in previous versions of the game.

Sometimes my AT teams (PIAT, Bazooka or Schreck) hidden in buildings are immediately spotted by the enemy, i.e. they get shot at the first second of the battle, while ambushing. I've also noticed this in CC:WAR. Doesn't seem to happen every time, but often, not sure why.

Routing soldiers and crews sometimes rout the wrong way. Towards an exit VL that's enemy controlled or near enemy units.

Vehicle pathing is good now, but my infantry always run on roads too. I order them to run adjacent to a road but instead of using the trees, hedges, ditch or houses by the roadside as cover, they run on the road itself, which is often elevated and this gets them killed.

Soldiers take too long to get in firing position after moving. Especially when they are fired upon they should stop "seeking cover" and instead do something sensible (like fire back or hide).

The AI does stupid things on the strategic map. It stacks BGs that don't need stacking and attacks all the time, it never fights delaying actions or just defends. Example: On the 18th, I ordered my 505th PIR in Beek to move to Nijmegen Bridge, but KG Euling also engaged me and the battle happened on the Beek map. This KG should focus on holding the bridge.

[Tejszd]

Mystic_Snake for your soldiers use Move instead of Move Fast. With Move Fast they will move onto the element(s) that allow them to move the fastest.

[emperor peter]

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

Mystic_Snake for your soldiers use Move instead of Move Fast. With Move Fast they will move onto the element(s) that allow them to move the fastest.

I'll try that but I find move too slow in most situations. Especially when I'm racing to get a bridge secured.

I now put a waypoint every 50m in the ditch beside the road. That works, until they get shot at that is. Then I have to do it over again.

[STIENER]

Tejszd
what are your other thoughts on the above posts?? we need input.

[Q.M]

ORIGINAL: STIENER

thanks QM....couple more questions
1] do you find that the guns do not HIDE well in LSA? in buildings and woods and hedges etc or not hide at all?
2] do you find that 50 mm and less size guns do not find many large buildings to hide in in LSA
3] do you find that guns are easily spotted while there in an ambush situation?
4] do you find guns less usefull in LSA than in other CC games..WAR....GJS etc

Hi Steiner, sorry been away on business.

See if I can answer these for you.

1. As I stated previously, I dont really expose my guns to any front obs or fire. I do find that on ambush you can hide faily well. After the first shot is fired and there is a direct LOF/LOS to your gun then you will be seen. Try this. Front on, sit on ambush, tgt, shoot, sit tight on ambush. Try the same in a defilade posn. On defend your guns will always been seen. Hedges and woods can really only provide cover from view.
Guns have never hidden well in CC as the human player against the AI. The AI on the other hand has always been capable of concealing it's guns. Is the AI cheating? Sorry, don’t know. H2H, I have never had a problem against a human player. Always a good match up for what CC is built for.

2. In buildings. Ok. Buildings along with all the rest of the terrain and glittery you see on the map is comprised of coded elements. Each of these elements is a certain size and takes up room obviously. The sprite also takes up a certain amount of space as well. I’m not doing a very good job explaining this, suffice to say if there is an interior element, say a wall, the building is narrow or the building is on an angle then all the coded elements need to take up space to provide the correct element in the correct location. The elements are large and very blocky and to consume a large area of space. So the building may look large but there may be elements in the way that block the sprite from being placed in there. I hope that makes sense. Below is an image of a coded map that may help explain that for you.



3. No not really. If you expose yourself by firing then yes you will be spotted. If you expect not to be seen on the edge of woods or in high grass, you will be. Some of those tankers have a sharp eye even buttoned up! Not a concise explanation I know but if you want to confront armour head on then you will pay a price. Enfilade is the answer.

4. No I don’t. Employ or learn to employ them correctly (not saying that you don’t know how to mind you) and you will see what I am talking about. It’s not a super weapon and like I said before, don’t stake all on the toss of the gun coin.

Hope that helps.

[STIENER]

thanks for the info QM......interesting. i see your points and they all make sense and your gun instruction probably will work to a point. but thats not how a/t guns were always historically deployed. its a way to make them work in LSA. historically most a/t guns, particulary german had the ability to destroy tanks at range from the fromt......with NO problem at all......german 88 and 75 mm, allied 6pdr with apds and 17 pdr. you must realize this?
did you ever play GJS????

IMO as i stated above guns dont work near as well in LSA as all the other CC's......CC5 & GJS, WAR, and TLD. i have been playing CC since CC2 and no newbie to this.

the german doctrine for example of the sword and the shield, which is attack with tanks and then have them fall back thru an a/t gun screen to draw the enemy armour onto it, wouldnt / doesnt work in LSA ..not even close. and i know that some of those a/t guns would be taking defilade shots even rear shots too, but not always. and that the idea of a dug in and camoflaged a/t gun being seen by a tank or anyone else after firing 1 or 2 rds is absurd in most cases. theres tons of 1st hand accounts of this.
it does work in GJS........thats why i asked you if you ever played GJS.

my argument is that in other CC games a/t guns work as a/t guns should. they work the way you suggest too, but thats not how they were always deployed.
in GJS you could deploy 3 or 4 6 pdr a/t guns in a corn field in an a/t gun screen and have them take out german armour at will and NOT be seen doing it. [ they do hide well in some of the CC games, i dont no what your thinkinf of? ] i had it happen to me and by me time and time again. the guns were very hard to spot and were deadly..as they should be.there supposed to be feared not laughed at. a/t guns etc in LSA are a joke.
in GJS you didnt have to baby sit them with taking ambush on and off so they werent seen when the shot......you could and it helped but it wasnt nessicary in most cases.

so im saying this in this forum because i also no that the makers of LSA have played all the CC games before this and obviously designed them and they know too that the a/t guns can be tweaked to work better and hide better.
i know this because i have seen that the guns can work better in this Game with this game engine. what i cant figure out is why everyone else is happy to let this go and just look for ways to make them sort of work

for the record......i never play the AI....it always sucks. i only play H2H, so my experiences are with human players in CC

so ill ask you the question again QM......did you / do you play GJS? [:)]

[Q.M]

Sorry. I thought you were asking how/could/would/do guns would work in LSA.

quote
1] do you find that the guns do not HIDE well in LSA? in buildings and woods and hedges etc or not hide at all?
2] do you find that 50 mm and less size guns do not find many large buildings to hide in in LSA
3] do you find that guns are easily spotted while there in an ambush situation?
4] do you find guns less usefull in LSA than in other CC games..WAR....GJS etc
unquote

I was citing the factual use and employment of guns in RL and applying them to LSA....as I was under the impression as to what that was what you were enquiring of.

Have I played GJS? Yes. Oh, and I work with one of the devs on the team as well. I thought I was replying to your questions as you required. Obviously you have different concerns and I am not answering these in the light you seek so I do apologies.

Happy hunting.

Hooroo.

[STIENER]

QM
i was asking how/could/would/do guns would work in LSA AND i was trying to get you to tell me if they work the way YOU think they they should in LSA. i would say that your happy with the way they work?

in my reply post i was trying to tell you that i really dont think they work like they should and i was giving you reasons why.

i really appriciate the reply's and the explanations....thank you. [:)]

[hikarumba]

Thanks for the explanations on how to use the AT guns. I will take them seriously.

I've had AT guns etc in a number of situations. I've tried some of the things that you have described where I set them well back away from the action hoping that something of value will cross their line of sight. I've only ever made one kill with one of them. In fact as a last resort I've placed them up front and exposed so that I could maybe get one or two shots off - minimally they were useful as fodder. I'm sorry to say but I just don't think that they are worth the point cost or the slot cost. Perhaps with more practice I might change my mind but currently I'm a bit skeptical.

On the other hand the panzershrek and bazooka teams have been very successful, they seem about right. They are mobile, sneaky and cheap to buy. I prefer them over the AT guns. I've had some good kills with them.

I do like the suggestion that I could put them on ambush, shoot and then put them on ambush again. If this really works then wouldn't it be better if the Guns just did that on their own?

Thanks.

[Andrew Williams]

If everything worked optimally with no user input... there would be no need for user input, and what fun is that?


Now if the AI controlled player did that.......

[STIENER]

i gotta say andrew...im not having any fun with this....getting seriously frustrated....zero imput from Steve and Oddball the guys who COULD change some of this stuff.
cant wait for Carthartes's TLD GJS......now theres a game worth playing...i hope

[Andrew Williams]

Then you're starting to get the idea of how I feel?