Intel reports

[vonTirpitz]

Too bad the Allies can't drop psyops leaflets. At least I'd have a better idea of where the bombs would fall and spice up the "radio transmission" messages a bit. [;)]

http://www.psywarrior.com/B52leaflets.html

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: VSWG

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Tracker has something similar in the Intel tab. You can get all intel for a base, ship, LCU that has been reported since the beginning of the db. I use it all the time pre-invasion to see which LCUs might be there.

Can't load tracker with the map, the DB is too large. [:(] Even without map, it takes 10 minutes to load now. I guess I have to restart with a clean DB.

I too had a huge DB, and probably a crappier PC than you (6 YO single core P4, 2 gigs RAM, XP), and by Sept. 1942 it was taking over 30 minutes to load the DB. I could play while it was cranking, but I had scroll lag galore.

In the course of looking to free up HD space to load Fallout:New Vegas, I erased all of my old Java versions (about 300 meg apiece; the instlaller doesn't dump them when it gets the next), and I went and got the newest Java version to install clean.

I had copied my Tracker files into a hold folder. I reinstalled a fresh Tracker, copied the old DB in, also the preferences, and tried to launch it. Would not load. I got the Heap error, which I hadn't gotten before, telling me I was out of memory. I didn't want to futz with expanding memory allocations, and maybe slow down the game itself, so I started it with no DB, let it build that plus the DB script file, then copied in the old DB.

I finally got it to work, but I lost all of the turn-by-turn data. Don't know why that won't load. However, I have retained all of the sunk ships, pilots, commanders, etc. Now it loads in about 45 seconds. Lost some history, but overall Tracker isn't driving my game sessions like it was when I had to wait for it to finish loading so I could load the turn I played while it was loading. It has current VPs, just not the old spreadsheet and line graph back to 12/7. Everything else is pretty much intact.

Tracker would be perfect if you could turn off modules you never use. The majority of the DB seems, from cranking time, to be th ePilots, and the Commanders. I never use either function in Tracker. The in-game resources are good enough for me. If I could turn those off I think the DB size woudl be far smaller, and loading on my ancient box far faster. Still, I don't want to play without it. I've come to rely on the functions I do use.

[SuluSea]

War History has a point the Japanese knew AF was short of water. [:D] [:D] [:'(]

[DeriKuk]

The unmanageable size of the Tracker DB is the main reason for my inability to "connect the dots". Every sixty turns or so I have to refresh the whole thing. It's on the refresh gaps that the trail gets lost. Within the 60-block I've tried to discern patterns, but nothing really useful has shown up. That said, I am playing the Allies in 1942 against a highly competent and aggressive human opponent. My ability to respond beyond staying out of his way, is rather limited.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: War History

Nice of you to focus on 1 part and totally ignore the first paragraph. Guess its easier to make your point by ignoring other facts that stand in the way of that point.

"In contrast to the allied side of the Pacific war the fact is widely unknown to historians that also Japan since the early 1930s was able to read the military and diplomatic ciphers of the United States as well as of Great Britain, though to a lesser degree than their enemies, and exchanged cryptographic information with the Axis partners, including captured code books."

The problem with this assertion is that there is absolutely NO combat evidence to support the claim. The history of the Pacific campaign is overrun with examples of the Allies using decoded information to bedevil the Japs. Midway is only the most famous incident..., there are hundreds of others. But where are the Japanese intelligence coups? Name the engagements the Japanese won by reading Allied Codes.

[stuman]

Interesting. And cool site. Thanks for sharing.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I have never seen an item that good.

That's because you didn't sacrifice a bucket of chicken to the random number gods.

Damn, I did not know this was a necessary part of the game. On my way to KFC right now !

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: stuman

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I have never seen an item that good.

That's because you didn't sacrifice a bucket of chicken to the random number gods.

Damn, I did not know this was a necessary part of the game. On my way to KFC right now !

Popeyes, or nothing![:)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton




Nuff said.

This one should strike fear into all JFBs. Yep, I get one of these 'purt near every other day . . .

I have never seen an item that good.

I must be living the good life. My game is about 500 turns along and I have had a carrier IDed by Sigint four times. Twice it was at critical points where I really needed to know where KB was....I know that JFBs must cringe at the thought but in real life it happend a lot more often.

I never ever saw it happen in WITP.

[War History]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: War History

Nice of you to focus on 1 part and totally ignore the first paragraph. Guess its easier to make your point by ignoring other facts that stand in the way of that point.

"In contrast to the allied side of the Pacific war the fact is widely unknown to historians that also Japan since the early 1930s was able to read the military and diplomatic ciphers of the United States as well as of Great Britain, though to a lesser degree than their enemies, and exchanged cryptographic information with the Axis partners, including captured code books."

The problem with this assertion is that there is absolutely NO combat evidence to support the claim. The history of the Pacific campaign is overrun with examples of the Allies using decoded information to bedevil the Japs. Midway is only the most famous incident..., there are hundreds of others. But where are the Japanese intelligence coups? Name the engagements the Japanese won by reading Allied Codes.

No evidence? how about the 2 Tokyo Rose reports cited already BEFORE the troops even knew where they were going? I think that is pretty good "evidence" and how many dozens or hundreds more? How many Japanese troops were on Chi-Chi Jima or Ha-Ha Jima? Not nearly the 27,000 on Iwo I suspect. Why would that be the case if the Japanese didn't know they were going to Iwo? Well known that the Japanese knew the allied invasion was coming to Kyushu. With the allies holding Iwo and Halsey pounding airbases from Tokyo north, why would the Japanese suspect Kyushu if not for intercepts et al? I could go on but if you refuse to believe then there is probably very little I can say that would convince you, since you seem to want to live in your little bliss of ignorance of the real situation instead of actually finding out the truth.

[War History]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

The incident in Kiska could easily be explained by a couple of recon flights (this would reveal the size, speed and arrival times of a large invasion fleet which would be easy enough to spot).

The Yap incident reflects the poor intel of the Japanese (reporting a division wiped out that hadn't even landed.)

It is QUITE possible (indeed, even likely) that you can derive the entire OOB from just traffic analysis. This was done by both sides (and not reflected in the game).

And, of course, anyone unfortunate enough to fall into Japanese hands (i.e., fliers, shipwreck survivors, POWs from whatever source) were going to give up information.

Picking up uncoded low-powered radio transmissions is an artform (amateur radio operators that are QRP buffs will know about this.)

Lastly, there are spies... not necessarily in the US, but also in foreign neutral countries. For instance, it was a neutral nation (USSR) that supplied a lot of information about what was going on in Japan (well, until August 1945). Places like Lisbon were hot-spots for espionage, and embassies were favorite targets.

EDIT: The penetration of the US diplomatic codes is not real news, since David Kahn wrote about it in The Codebreakers in the 1960s.

Exactly my point. What are the Japanese intell reports in the game? "Radio traffic at XXX". That's it. They deserve MORE than that. And in the case of Yap, all that reflects is the fact that the propaganda ministry wasn't updated that the division didn't land. Clearly they knew it was SUPPOSED to land. And air recon isn't going to give the Japanese info on what units and their strengths on board ship well out of their recon range. The Japs pulled off Kiska because they knew what was coming and they clearly felt it wasn't worth it to try to hold it.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: War History

Nice of you to focus on 1 part and totally ignore the first paragraph. Guess its easier to make your point by ignoring other facts that stand in the way of that point.

"In contrast to the allied side of the Pacific war the fact is widely unknown to historians that also Japan since the early 1930s was able to read the military and diplomatic ciphers of the United States as well as of Great Britain, though to a lesser degree than their enemies, and exchanged cryptographic information with the Axis partners, including captured code books."

The problem with this assertion is that there is absolutely NO combat evidence to support the claim. The history of the Pacific campaign is overrun with examples of the Allies using decoded information to bedevil the Japs. Midway is only the most famous incident..., there are hundreds of others. But where are the Japanese intelligence coups? Name the engagements the Japanese won by reading Allied Codes.

No evidence? how about the 2 Tokyo Rose reports cited already BEFORE the troops even knew where they were going? I think that is pretty good "evidence" and how many dozens or hundreds more? How many Japanese troops were on Chi-Chi Jima or Ha-Ha Jima? Not nearly the 27,000 on Iwo I suspect. Why would that be the case if the Japanese didn't know they were going to Iwo? Well known that the Japanese knew the allied invasion was coming to Kyushu. With the allies holding Iwo and Halsey pounding airbases from Tokyo north, why would the Japanese suspect Kyushu if not for intercepts et al? I could go on but if you refuse to believe then there is probably very little I can say that would convince you, since you seem to want to live in your little bliss of ignorance of the real situation instead of actually finding out the truth.

None of this is exactly firm evidence that the Japanese decoded a single message... all the intel could be (and from what i have read) be derived from other sources.

There is considerable evidence that the Japanese FAILED to decode much of anything during the war, including testimony from the Japanese "code breakers" themselves.

Again, if you are really interested, i refer you to David Kahn's excellent The Codebreakers, a history cryptanalysis.

Despite the recent "news" that the Japanese had broken the diplomatic codes (in the 1930s), this fact was widely known. US diplomatic codes were something of a farce.
The Codebreakers pp 490-491 "... by the time the United States entered the war, every major European power must have had one or more American diplomatic codes."

The US KNEW that Japan had penetrated the "Gray Code" (one of the standard US diplomatic codes), and in fact when FDR sent his last minute peace proposal to Emperor Hirohito on December 6, 1941, he scrawled a message (shown in the book) with it "Dear Cordell, shoot this to Grew [the US ambassador to Japan] -- I think can go in gray code -- saves time -- I don't mind if it gets picked up FDR". I.e. Roosevelt KNEW the diplomatic code had been penetrated, and was hoping that the Japanese codebreakers would get the message. Unfortunately for the efforts of peace, the Hirohito government DID get the message and sat on it, since the Pearl Harbor attack was already in motion.

Operational use of these codes (i.e., the manner in which they were used) changed abruptly on December 7. However, the US would occasionally use the penetrated codes, using them "only for messages which we were willing or even anxious to have the Germans read, and over the months we discarded it entirely. To have stopped using it immediately would have told the Germans that we knew they had broken it." )pp 498-499.

The high US MILITARY codes were generally "one time pads", which were machine generated, and theoretically unbreakable (it can be deciphered if someone captures the "pad", but this would be limited to a single message.)

Both the lower level Russian and US codes were apparently never broken during the war. While based on something like the ENIGMA machine, supposedly there was a minor but important difference in construction which i can go into if people are interested. The US and Brits could and did break ENIGMA and (similar) IJ codes with a HUGE amount of effort, including developing electronic computers.

The Japanese and Germans never mounted anything like the resources the Allies did to break codes.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: War History

No evidence? how about the 2 Tokyo Rose reports cited already BEFORE the troops even knew where they were going? I think that is pretty good "evidence" and how many dozens or hundreds more? These were propaganda broadcasts. Unsettling, but hardly militarily effective. How many Japanese troops were on Chi-Chi Jima or Ha-Ha Jima? Not nearly the 27,000 on Iwo I suspect. And how many airbases were on the others? Were either large enough to support B-29's? Why would that be the case if the Japanese didn't know they were going to Iwo? Well known that the Japanese knew the allied invasion was coming to Kyushu. With the allies holding Iwo and Halsey pounding airbases from Tokyo north, why would the Japanese suspect Kyushu if not for intercepts et al? Because only Kyushu was in air support range from Okinawa? Which also provided an emergency repair facility for any ships damaged in the invasion. I could go on but if you refuse to believe then there is probably very little I can say that would convince you, since you seem to want to live in your little bliss of ignorance of the real situation instead of actually finding out the truth. I KNOW the truth. You are the one who insists on turning wisps of smoke into thunderstorms.

"Show me the car fax." Did any of the Japanese naval forces involved in trying to stop the invasion of the Marianas leave port BEFORE the landings began? Must have had some great "intel" there. How about Letye Gulf? Any sign of the reaction forces having any advanced intel? Nope. Even the IJA had to ship troops to Letye after the landings.

After the first few well-planned months of the war, the Japanese were continually caught "flat footed" by Allied operations. Sometimes (Savo Island) they reacted decisively and achieved success anyway...., but never on the basis of code breaking intel. When Rochefort wanted to confirm Midway was "AF", he had them send a phony message "in the clear", not in code. Then he and his code breakers read the coded Japanese message saying that "AF was short of fresh water."

Kenney KNEW from his code breakers that the Japanese were going to try and reinforce New Guinea from Rabaul, what ships would be used, and when they were coming. Result? "The Battle of the Bismarck Sea" and the total destruction of the convoy. Show me the reverse of that coin? You can't.., because there never was one.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

The incident in Kiska could easily be explained by a couple of recon flights (this would reveal the size, speed and arrival times of a large invasion fleet which would be easy enough to spot).

The Yap incident reflects the poor intel of the Japanese (reporting a division wiped out that hadn't even landed.)

It is QUITE possible (indeed, even likely) that you can derive the entire OOB from just traffic analysis. This was done by both sides (and not reflected in the game).

And, of course, anyone unfortunate enough to fall into Japanese hands (i.e., fliers, shipwreck survivors, POWs from whatever source) were going to give up information.

Picking up uncoded low-powered radio transmissions is an artform (amateur radio operators that are QRP buffs will know about this.)

Lastly, there are spies... not necessarily in the US, but also in foreign neutral countries. For instance, it was a neutral nation (USSR) that supplied a lot of information about what was going on in Japan (well, until August 1945). Places like Lisbon were hot-spots for espionage, and embassies were favorite targets.

EDIT: The penetration of the US diplomatic codes is not real news, since David Kahn wrote about it in The Codebreakers in the 1960s.

Exactly my point. What are the Japanese intell reports in the game? "Radio traffic at XXX". That's it. They deserve MORE than that. And in the case of Yap, all that reflects is the fact that the propaganda ministry wasn't updated that the division didn't land. Clearly they knew it was SUPPOSED to land. And air recon isn't going to give the Japanese info on what units and their strengths on board ship well out of their recon range. The Japs pulled off Kiska because they knew what was coming and they clearly felt it wasn't worth it to try to hold it.

If you see a few hundred ships sailing in your direction at 10 knots and they are 450 miles away, it is a simple task to send out a message that "we know you are coming and when you will arrive", and give time and date. If the message is incorrect, no one remembers. How many times did Tokyo Rose broadcast incorrect messages during the war?

If we are to believe that one correct broadcast indicates good intel, then by the same logic every incorrect broadcast indicates BAD intel.

So, you could have Japanese intel reports laced with, say, 10 INCORRECT messages for every 1 good one. As the game is played now, you pretty much know all the intel you get is accurate. Imagine if you DIDN'T know that.

As for the "they knew what unit was coming", i would think that if anyone on the island was listening to US radio broadcasts, they might (fairly easily) deduce the OOB based on traffic analysis. If you know that Division X is going to be involved in an operation, and then the (say) 37th Division shows up in the operation, and later you know that the same division is going to show up in a different operation based on traffic analysis you can make predictions. The fact that the Japanese made INCORRECT predictions doesn't speak highly of their efforts.

[War History]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

If you see a few hundred ships sailing in your direction at 10 knots and they are 450 miles away, it is a simple task to send out a message that "we know you are coming and when you will arrive", and give time and date. If the message is incorrect, no one remembers. How many times did Tokyo Rose broadcast incorrect messages during the war?

If we are to believe that one correct broadcast indicates good intel, then by the same logic every incorrect broadcast indicates BAD intel.

So, you could have Japanese intel reports laced with, say, 10 INCORRECT messages for every 1 good one. As the game is played now, you pretty much know all the intel you get is accurate. Imagine if you DIDN'T know that.

As for the "they knew what unit was coming", i would think that if anyone on the island was listening to US radio broadcasts, they might (fairly easily) deduce the OOB based on traffic analysis. If you know that Division X is going to be involved in an operation, and then the (say) 37th Division shows up in the operation, and later you know that the same division is going to show up in a different operation based on traffic analysis you can make predictions. The fact that the Japanese made INCORRECT predictions doesn't speak highly of their efforts.

The allied intel reports (in the game) are not 100% accurate are they? If they are then would you agree that they shouldn't be? So if the allied reports are not 100% accurate, then the Japanese reports shouldn't be either. All I am saying is the Japanese ploayer deserves MORE than "radio traffic at Winnepeg". Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Ed: The allied player gets plenty of "this unit at this location" reports. From what you said the Japanese player should also get SOME of these type of reports, correct? Isn't that what you just said?

In the case of the Kiska landings, according to Canadian reports, Tokyo Rose knew the UNIT STRENGTHS of the units aboard ship that were not even within air recon range of any Japanese base. They got that information how? Frankly, it doesn't matter HOW they got it, the fact is, they had it. The game should reflect that.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
War History has a point the Japanese knew AF was short of water. [:D] [:D] [:'(]

Do you realize that 99.999% of the population has no idea what this means? Today, just a handful of historians, a few in the military, and a bunch of history buffs and AE (and similar games) people know.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

If you see a few hundred ships sailing in your direction at 10 knots and they are 450 miles away, it is a simple task to send out a message that "we know you are coming and when you will arrive", and give time and date. If the message is incorrect, no one remembers. How many times did Tokyo Rose broadcast incorrect messages during the war?

If we are to believe that one correct broadcast indicates good intel, then by the same logic every incorrect broadcast indicates BAD intel.

So, you could have Japanese intel reports laced with, say, 10 INCORRECT messages for every 1 good one. As the game is played now, you pretty much know all the intel you get is accurate. Imagine if you DIDN'T know that.

As for the "they knew what unit was coming", i would think that if anyone on the island was listening to US radio broadcasts, they might (fairly easily) deduce the OOB based on traffic analysis. If you know that Division X is going to be involved in an operation, and then the (say) 37th Division shows up in the operation, and later you know that the same division is going to show up in a different operation based on traffic analysis you can make predictions. The fact that the Japanese made INCORRECT predictions doesn't speak highly of their efforts.

The allied intel reports (in the game) are not 100% accurate are they? If they are then would you agree that they shouldn't be? So if the allied reports are not 100% accurate, then the Japanese reports shouldn't be either. All I am saying is the Japanese ploayer deserves MORE than "radio traffic at Winnepeg". Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

AFAIK - the reports in the game are accurate when they are given*, but i am sure i will be corrected if i am wrong. (*i.e. - if the player is told the destination of a ship, it is accurate when the information is given, but it doesn't mean that the other side can't change the orders the next turn).

Given the amount of information the Allies get from their reports, no, the Japanese do NOT deserve more information. If the Allies get the amount of information that approached something like what really happened, then, yes, they (the Japanese) should get more information.

From what i can read, unfortunately for the Allies, the US codebreaking was pretty mismanaged after Midway due to, well, let's not get into it. The Allies had broken essentially every code the Japanese had except one - and that code was so messed up the JAPANESE couldn't decipher it (and it was discontinued in 1942-1943).

Codebreaking EASILY shortened the war by 1 year, and it is my belief (as well as others who have studied it more carefully) it could have shortened the war by at least another year had it been properly used.

[War History]

So you are saying that all the stuff you said before is bunk and has no weight.

So by default, this too should be considered bunk and have no weight. Just wanted you to admit your hypocrisy. Which you have now done.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

So you are saying that all the stuff you said before is bunk and has no weight.

So by default, this too should be considered bunk and have no weight. Just wanted you to admit your hypocrisy. Which you have now done.

What are you talking about??? [&:]

EDIT: If you are saying the Japanese knew more than what the game gives them, yes, it is true. But the Allies knew FAR FAR more than what the game gives them as well. So, given the relative strengths of the intel reports IN THE GAME, no, the Japanese do not deserve more.

[rtrapasso]

Just wanted you to admit your hypocrisy. Which you have now done.

i do NOT take kindly to people calling me names, nor attributing motives to me which are not true.