Pilots: CAP and Fatigue

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If you want to have 50% in the air when the enemy comes calling then you´ve got to set them at least to 80% Cap. That way you will still lose lots of fighters on the ground but not as many as you would with a mini Cap setting while actually having a chance to also inflict some damage on the enemy. Of course then you just have to ignore that after one or two days all your pilots are at 40+ fat. Have raised this months ago... oh well

The problem with this plan is, of course, that highly-fatigued pilots don't fly either. An 80% CAP will gut your fighter protection in a few days, certainly less than a week. And you're back to losing the planes on the ground.

Depending on base location about the only thing you can do is have a rotation program for R&R and enough units to allow this. In some other cases you just have to accept a lower number of planes in the air, but with rested pilots.

have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesn´t seem to be the case in my games. The only way to get an "acceptable" number of fighters in the air is to have a real high Cap %. Then you have to accept the fat or otherwise you have to pull out. Can´t see much of a possibility as long as radar isn´t working.

Fat is sky rocketing but that way I´ve get some 50% (sometimes more) fighters airborne... leaves still a lot on the ground to be torched though... no radar is a mess, for both sides...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesn´t seem to be the case in my games.

"Colors may be used on this screen to denote significant changes in the status of pilots. A pilot’s
name in yellow indicates his Overall EXP is above 80 and is eligible to transfer to the Training
Command. White indicates he is currently assigned a plane and is ready to fly. Black indicates
he is removed from flight duty due to excessive fatigue or a shortage of aircraft."

P. 146 of manual.

Tired pilots get grounded. If you've over-strengthed the unit you may have a replacement to swap in . . . for awhile. But running at 80% CAP, especially in a malaria zone base like NG, will gut your performance very quickly.

In addition to pilots with high fatigue not flying at all, fatigue affects in-the-air perfomance too.

"Pilots and crews become fatigued as they fly. A long Mission will cause them to end up with
a high Fatigue and Disruption rate upon arriving at the target."

P. 175 of manual.

So, your fighter pilots may be up there, but they may also get clocked and KIAed if tired.

There's no free lunch. High fatigue is a killer. That's one reason it's in the game.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

have never heard about fatigued pilots not flying and this also doesn´t seem to be the case in my games.

"Colors may be used on this screen to denote significant changes in the status of pilots. A pilot’s
name in yellow indicates his Overall EXP is above 80 and is eligible to transfer to the Training
Command. White indicates he is currently assigned a plane and is ready to fly. Black indicates
he is removed from flight duty due to excessive fatigue or a shortage of aircraft."

P. 146 of manual.

Tired pilots get grounded. If you've over-strengthed the unit you may have a replacement to swap in . . . for awhile. But running at 80% CAP, especially in a malaria zone base like NG, will gut your performance very quickly.

In addition to pilots with high fatigue not flying at all, fatigue affects in-the-air perfomance too.

"Pilots and crews become fatigued as they fly. A long Mission will cause them to end up with
a high Fatigue and Disruption rate upon arriving at the target."

P. 175 of manual.

So, your fighter pilots may be up there, but they may also get clocked and KIAed if tired.

There's no free lunch. High fatigue is a killer. That's one reason it's in the game.

My PBEM is in Dec 43 now and guess what, I have yet to see a pilot being BLACK. And effect on performance? Not notable in my games so you should either take the manual with a grain of salt or keep you fighters on the ground to be bombed. That´s perhaps a possibility if you are the Japanese and got the ability to pump out fighters at will, but as the Allied with replacement rates of a couple of dozen per month I better have my fighters in the air, even if there are only 50% of them, this is still better than having 85% grounded because I follow the manual. There is so much not spot on in the manual or hasn´t made it that I would only take it as a guide but not as gospel.

Just a side note on aboves statement in bold, I´ve got enough squadrons with 33 pilots having 2 aircraft and NOT A SINGLE PILOT shows up in black. Would 33 pilots for 2 aircaft not count as "shortage of aircraft". So much about the manual.

But everyone feel free to believe the manual and set whatever Cap rate he wishes to, like mentioned above, I preferre having my fighters in the air, no matter how fatigued the pilots are and as long as they manage to achieve 20:1 kill rates in these never ending dive loops I also don´t give a damn what the manual says about "decreased air to air performance".

[FatR]

I generally use either 40% CAP, no rest, or 50% CAP, 50% rest.

[Bullwinkle58]

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.

better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilot´s performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like I´ve said, RADAR ISN´T WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, I´ve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that it´s better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isn´t working" then it´s probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.

better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilot´s performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like I´ve said, RADAR ISN´T WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, I´ve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that it´s better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isn´t working" then it´s probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...

Jeeze, rave much?

I'm not talking about radar. That's a separate issue.

I'm not talking about how great P-47s are. They are great, even when flown by half-asleep pilots.

I AM talking about a code check for fatigue, which I believe is in the game. I invite a dev to respond if this is not the case.

The problem you KEEP ignoring is that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER GROUNDING TIRED PILOTS. If the guy passes the level where he fails the check, he gets grounded. If you have over-manned the unit another guy gets tapped to fly. If he has low fatigue, you're fine. If he has medium fatigue, he flies badly, and probably gets killed. You can't stop this from happening, except by taking action to adjust your Rest and Stand Down controls.

If you're not getting a lot of fighters up, maybe it's radar. Maybe. Or maybe it's partly that your pilots are asleep.

Again, I'm done here, but I'd appreciate The Elf or another dev with code access to let us knwo if the fatigue check described in the manual is still in the code.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

OK, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

The color thing is from the manual. We all know that the pilot color scheme was changed very early, in the first patch I believe. That does not change the fact that pilot fatigue was not changed, it's in the code, it's a performance check, and rightly so.

I don't care what you do or think in your games, but you shouldn't be telling new players that running pilots at 80% fatigue has no effect on game mechanics. That's simply untrue.

better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilot´s performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like I´ve said, RADAR ISN´T WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, I´ve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that it´s better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isn´t working" then it´s probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...

Jeeze, rave much?

I'm not talking about radar. That's a separate issue.

I'm not talking about how great P-47s are. They are great, even when flown by half-asleep pilots.

I AM talking about a code check for fatigue, which I believe is in the game. I invite a dev to respond if this is not the case.

The problem you KEEP ignoring is that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER GROUNDING TIRED PILOTS. If the guy passes the level where he fails the check, he gets grounded. If you have over-manned the unit another guy gets tapped to fly. If he has low fatigue, you're fine. If he has medium fatigue, he flies badly, and probably gets killed. You can't stop this from happening, except by taking action to adjust your Rest and Stand Down controls.

If you're not getting a lot of fighters up, maybe it's radar. Maybe. Or maybe it's partly that your pilots are asleep.

Again, I'm done here, but I'd appreciate The Elf or another dev with code access to let us knwo if the fatigue check described in the manual is still in the code.

you´re done, well I´m done too then, because if you really think the fighters are grounded due to fatigue then I can´t help you anyway. I can give you a tip though, put them on 100% Cap and use working radar (= ship based) and then put them on 100% Cap and use non working radar (= land based) and you will find out that it´s NOT fatigue that keeps them on the ground but no prewarning time. For your info, with working radar and 80% Cap I more or less get 100% of the fighters into the air and now please don´t tell me that the fatigue for carrier based fighter pilots is anywhere different to land based fighter pilots as both show the same fatigue. The ones with radar scramble, the ones without radar don´t scramble. Got nothing to do with fatigue. And like I´ve said, if you preferre having them sit on the ground or on the carrier, just go ahead and keep them grounded, any opponent will be happy to bomb them on the ground or send them to the bottom together with the carrier they sit on.

It´s so easy, it´s so easy you could even find out without believing the manual, nor reading the manual, nor doing any test... just PLAYING

[TommyG]

What about moving overworked pilots into group reserve. Will that: 1. keep them from flying, and 2 allow them to recover fatigue?

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: TommyG

What about moving overworked pilots into group reserve. Will that: 1. keep them from flying, and 2 allow them to recover fatigue?

Yes and no. Problem is that when in group reserve my experience is that the pilot recover 1 point of fatigue per day. Much less than if resting. So isnt much of a solution IMO.

Rasmus

[DivePac88]

Bullwinkle58, thank you for your logical and patient explanation of the facts. It would appear till the radar problem is fixed CAP of bases will be a problematical.

castor troy, the reason I missed the radar problem is that I have been absent from the game and forum for around a year because of family reasons, and have only recently return.

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy




better tell new people what is happening in the game instead of telling them something from the manual that is 100% untrue. How bad is my P-47 pilot´s performance when they manage to down enemy fighters 20:1 at times when they get a never ending dive? Wow, they really must be hit by fatigue decreasing their performance.

Like I´ve said, RADAR ISN´T WORKING, so go ahead and keep your fighters sitting on the ground to get bombed or take the fat and have them at least airborne at perhaps 50%. Believe me, I´ve pointed out things that are totally bugged (and fixed in the next patch) so long ago that it´s better to "believe" me than believe what is stated in the manual and either never made it into the game or has been changed with some patch. When I started to cry about not working search archs and not working land based radar in my AAR people have still been thinking for MONTHS everything would be fine. Heck, fine with me, go ahead and believe the manual or think everything would be fine.

When I just look at this thread and read the "what? land based radar isn´t working" then it´s probably time for me to start posting in BOLD only...

Jeeze, rave much?

I'm not talking about radar. That's a separate issue.

I'm not talking about how great P-47s are. They are great, even when flown by half-asleep pilots.

I AM talking about a code check for fatigue, which I believe is in the game. I invite a dev to respond if this is not the case.

The problem you KEEP ignoring is that YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER GROUNDING TIRED PILOTS. If the guy passes the level where he fails the check, he gets grounded. If you have over-manned the unit another guy gets tapped to fly. If he has low fatigue, you're fine. If he has medium fatigue, he flies badly, and probably gets killed. You can't stop this from happening, except by taking action to adjust your Rest and Stand Down controls.

If you're not getting a lot of fighters up, maybe it's radar. Maybe. Or maybe it's partly that your pilots are asleep.

Again, I'm done here, but I'd appreciate The Elf or another dev with code access to let us knwo if the fatigue check described in the manual is still in the code.

you´re done, well I´m done too then, because if you really think the fighters are grounded due to fatigue then I can´t help you anyway. I can give you a tip though, put them on 100% Cap and use working radar (= ship based) and then put them on 100% Cap and use non working radar (= land based) and you will find out that it´s NOT fatigue that keeps them on the ground but no prewarning time. For your info, with working radar and 80% Cap I more or less get 100% of the fighters into the air and now please don´t tell me that the fatigue for carrier based fighter pilots is anywhere different to land based fighter pilots as both show the same fatigue. The ones with radar scramble, the ones without radar don´t scramble. Got nothing to do with fatigue. And like I´ve said, if you preferre having them sit on the ground or on the carrier, just go ahead and keep them grounded, any opponent will be happy to bomb them on the ground or send them to the bottom together with the carrier they sit on.

It´s so easy, it´s so easy you could even find out without believing the manual, nor reading the manual, nor doing any test... just PLAYING

Hate to say it CT, but the Moose is 100% right, kinda and as far as it goes [:)]. And I will note that I have frequently been bitten by insufficient pilots flying due to fatigue when I fail to micromanage to the required detail with MANUAL pilot control specified.

It's just what he (and the manual) calls "black" is what distinguishes pilots in squadron reserve instead of currently active. Note that you will ONLY see this if you have excess pilots since the code will NOT place a fatigued pilot in reserve unless there are enough pilots left (after the reserve action) to man all CURRENTLY READY a/c. Thus you will NOT have planes fail to fly due to fatigue UNLESS the number of ready a/c has increased since the reserve action AND you are using MANUAL pilot control.

[castor troy]

So how do you explain that I can constantly get ALL my carrier based fighters in the air then? These are just as fatigued as the land based fighter pilots. How can you explain then that if I have ship based radar in range I also get ALL my fully fatigued land based figther pilots in the air? But I DON´T get the fatigued pilots in the air when there is no radar? Sorry people, but do you want to explain me that the fatigue kicks in when no radar is available (no WORKING radar) and if radar is available the pilots don´t care about fatigue? This is not supposed to be the start of a fight but what I see in the game is not what ppl are trying to tell me while quoting the manual.

Just for you info, I did a test, just over a couple of turns. First I have put my fighters on high % of Cap to get their fat into the usual 30-40 (takes you exactly.... two days ). So assuming pilots with high fatigue don´t fly, I have set them to fly an airfield attack. Guess what happened? I had ALL available fighters (a full sized 25 aircraft squadron) fly three days in a row (2 fighters became damaged or had to be maintained). Like in many other cases, perhaps it´s my special edition of WITP AE as it seems to have been so often in the past, just to find out that months later, "my" issues have become "general" issues, mainly called bugs or exploits in the end. Why? Don´t ask me, perhaps I´m the loudest cryer and the issues aren´t even issues but I convinced people with my crying? Ok, then I will stop saying "radar is broken" or "search archs are broken" or whatever else I said and still stand to. Will this "heal" land based radar then? If I stop saying that my aircraft all fly with pilots being in the fat range of 30-40 will they STOP flying then?

Ok, let´s go back to where this little "fight" started. I said, radar isn´t working. I also said, if radar isn´t working and you want to defend something with Cap, you are hopeless with 30% because this means probably 80% of the fighters will be sitting on the ground. I then said, if needed, I put the fighters on 80% because this at least brings around 50% into the air, while saying I don´t care about fatigue as I can´t see it having any impact (perhaps it has but not one that I notice as my squadrons with 5 fat perform as good/worse as squadrons with 40 fat). So you can either choose to have your monthly replacement rate being bombed in one turn on the ground or fight the enemy in the air with 50% of your fighters while also causing damage to him.

I never manually set any pilots to active, what I do (and I expect nearly every PBEM player to do so) is fill out the pilot slots of a squadron, means you got 1/3 more pilots than aircraft. So if having enough pilots (while they all got nearly the same fat of 30-40) means this is the reason ALL fighters fly, well, then be it, but this doesn´t change the fact that ALL fighters fly, which is exactly what I say but what is also denied in this thread it seems.

Ok, then the manual quote was thrown at me. I then said, I don´t give a damn about the manual because the manual is the manual, it´s kind of a guide and there were some patches already. Patch + manual + taking it as gospel = bad outcome. So if peopel believe me or not is their own thing, all I said in this trhead was thought as a tip, it was said how I do it. If people do it different, to each his own. What makes me jump up and down then, is when people tell me it´s not the way I see it the whole week for the average of some 20 hours or more. A fact is, MY pilots fly and 80% Cap isn´t accumulating as much fatigue (even if it always stays in the 30-40 range) that they stay grounded as I could clearly see when I order them on airfield attack with that fat - ALL available ac flew! So Cap not being in the air is NOT happening due to too high fat from 80% Cap but because of no prewarning time due do bugged land based radar in MY game. So if we get to the conclusion that ppl and me got different versions of the game, well, then that´s the way it is. If not, then ppl´s pilots fly just like my do too.

Of course the solution for all this is having working radar. Working radar, more ac in the air, lower fat. BUT radar isn´t working AT THE MOMENT.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Bullwinkle58, thank you for your logical and patient explanation of the facts. It would appear till the radar problem is fixed CAP of bases will be a problematical.

castor troy, the reason I missed the radar problem is that I have been absent from the game and forum for around a year because of family reasons, and have only recently return.

no problem mate, this wasn´t exclusively pointed at you as there were other ppl being as surprised as you. Glad to see you back. I´ve been aware of the radar bug since an endlessly long time already it seems, Kereguelen once asked me in my AAR how many radar sets I had in Burma when they failed and failed and failed and failed day after day. I guess he took it with him into the dev forum, don´t know if or what happened then, as it stands now land based radar is officially bugged anyway.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Just for you info, I did a test, just over a couple of turns. First I have put my fighters on high % of Cap to get their fat into the usual 30-40 (takes you exactly.... two days ). So assuming pilots with high fatigue don´t fly, I have set them to fly an airfield attack. Guess what happened? I had ALL available fighters (a full sized 25 aircraft squadron) fly three days in a row (2 fighters became damaged or had to be maintained). Like in many other cases, perhaps it´s my special edition of WITP AE as it seems to have been so often in the past, just to find out that months later, "my" issues have become "general" issues, mainly called bugs or exploits in the end. Why? Don´t ask me, perhaps I´m the loudest cryer and the issues aren´t even issues but I convinced people with my crying? Ok, then I will stop saying "radar is broken" or "search archs are broken" or whatever else I said and still stand to. Will this "heal" land based radar then? If I stop saying that my aircraft all fly with pilots being in the fat range of 30-40 will they STOP flying then?

Venturing one toe back into this thing, and not wanting to "get into it" today, I would just say:

1. I don't maintain there isn't a "radar problem." I believe there is evidence and communication from the devs that there is, with land radar, and it's being addressed.

2. I think fatigue and any "radar problems" are unrelated, but both could contribute to CAP results seen. Percentage of pilots flying CAP/reacting to incoming enemies is a function, probably, of at least two things--fatigue, and the "radar problem." To the extent the latter exists, nothing can be done about it without a patch. To the extent the former contributes, things can be done now by the player to reduce the effects of fatigue.

3. Re your test above, I don't consider 30-40 fatigue to be "high." I consider 70-80% to be high. Looking at some of my British units in NE India, I have fatigue levels in the same squadron that range from 0 to 92. My claim is that the code grounds the 92 fatigue pilot and replaces him with a reserve. If there are no reserves, that plane doesn't fly. My belief is that such a unit does not fly the 92 fatigue pilot if there is no other avaialbale. It sits on the ground.

4. Again, re your test, I believe, but have no data, that unit leadership is a core contributor to what level of fatigue is sufficient to ground a pilot. This makes real world sense as well. Inspirational leaders can get men to do extraordinary things. If your unit in your test flew 100% with 30-40 fatigue, I would urge you to re-test at 50-60 fatigue and the worst dishrag squadron leader you can find. See where the breakpoint is, and see if absolute fatigue level is key, or leadership, or both equally.

And if you can get a 92 fatigue piilot to fly, please post the results, and I'll join you in a mutual head-scratching session.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Just for you info, I did a test, just over a couple of turns. First I have put my fighters on high % of Cap to get their fat into the usual 30-40 (takes you exactly.... two days ). So assuming pilots with high fatigue don´t fly, I have set them to fly an airfield attack. Guess what happened? I had ALL available fighters (a full sized 25 aircraft squadron) fly three days in a row (2 fighters became damaged or had to be maintained). Like in many other cases, perhaps it´s my special edition of WITP AE as it seems to have been so often in the past, just to find out that months later, "my" issues have become "general" issues, mainly called bugs or exploits in the end. Why? Don´t ask me, perhaps I´m the loudest cryer and the issues aren´t even issues but I convinced people with my crying? Ok, then I will stop saying "radar is broken" or "search archs are broken" or whatever else I said and still stand to. Will this "heal" land based radar then? If I stop saying that my aircraft all fly with pilots being in the fat range of 30-40 will they STOP flying then?

Venturing one toe back into this thing, and not wanting to "get into it" today, I would just say:

1. I don't maintain there isn't a "radar problem." I believe there is evidence and communication from the devs that there is, with land radar, and it's being addressed.

2. I think fatigue and any "radar problems" are unrelated, but both could contribute to CAP results seen. Percentage of pilots flying CAP/reacting to incoming enemies is a function, probably, of at least two things--fatigue, and the "radar problem." To the extent the latter exists, nothing can be done about it without a patch. To the extent the former contributes, things can be done now by the player to reduce the effects of fatigue.

3. Re your test above, I don't consider 30-40 fatigue to be "high." I consider 70-80% to be high. Looking at some of my British units in NE India, I have fatigue levels in the same squadron that range from 0 to 92. My claim is that the code grounds the 92 fatigue pilot and replaces him with a reserve. If there are no reserves, that plane doesn't fly. My belief is that such a unit does not fly the 92 fatigue pilot if there is no other avaialbale. It sits on the ground.

4. Again, re your test, I believe, but have no data, that unit leadership is a core contributor to what level of fatigue is sufficient to ground a pilot. This makes real world sense as well. Inspirational leaders can get men to do extraordinary things. If your unit in your test flew 100% with 30-40 fatigue, I would urge you to re-test at 50-60 fatigue and the worst dishrag squadron leader you can find. See where the breakpoint is, and see if absolute fatigue level is key, or leadership, or both equally.

And if you can get a 92 fatigue piilot to fly, please post the results, and I'll join you in a mutual head-scratching session.

if you don´t consider 30-40 fatigue high then I wonder where all this discussion has lead to because with 80% Cap 20% rest your pilots exactly end up in the 30-40 fat range. So what am we discussing now? Thought this started exactly because you said you couldn´t use 80% Cap because the pilots would end up grounded due to fat? Looks like I´m missing something here...

And no, I sure can´t show you a 92 fat pilot flying because I was never able to get a 92 fat pilot. [8|] And while you were always talking about "high" fatigue, I was always talking about 30-40 fatigue. How could I even imagine that "high" would mean 92 for you? Doesn´t matter anyway as I won´t get my pilots to 92 and to end going round and round in circles, to me it seems your claim that 80% Cap would be too high because of getting TOO fatigued (92 then?) doesn´t make sense because I don´t get that high... mmmm, lol [&:]

Don´t know what you are doing, my squadrons with 80% Cap and fully maxed out pilots never get that high. And to extend your example, with 1/3 more pilots than fighters, this would mean that MORE of 1/3 of the pilots would have to be at your "high" (aka 92) fatigue to see the first fighter being grounded. Do you want to say that in a squadron with 25 fighters and 33 pilots, you´ve got 9 (in words NINE) pilots with fat of 92? This would mean your first fighter would be grounded and only 24 in the air at best. Now I just wonder what you are doing if this is what you see.

Besides that, why should I put bad leaders into my squadron? Don´t fly 80% Cap because you end up in 30-40 fat (or 92 fat in your version of the game) and if you THEN even got a bad leader your fighters won´t fly? How many things more have to happen to stay grounded due to fat? This becomes more and more looking like you have to deliberately break something to have them not fly due to Cap. Sorry, this doesn´t happen by accident in my PBEM. [&:]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

if you don´t consider 30-40 fatigue high then I wonder where all this discussion has lead to because with 80% Cap 20% rest your pilots exactly end up in the 30-40 fat range. So what am we discussing now? Thought this started exactly because you said you couldn´t use 80% Cap because the pilots would end up grounded due to fat? Looks like I´m missing something here...

And no, I sure can´t show you a 92 fat pilot flying because I was never able to get a 92 fat pilot. [8|] And while you were always talking about "high" fatigue, I was always talking about 30-40 fatigue. How could I even imagine that "high" would mean 92 for you? Doesn´t matter anyway as I won´t get my pilots to 92 and to end going round and round in circles, to me it seems your claim that 80% Cap would be too high because of getting TOO fatigued (92 then?) doesn´t make sense because I don´t get that high... mmmm, lol [&:]

Don´t know what you are doing, my squadrons with 80% Cap and fully maxed out pilots never get that high. And to extend your example, with 1/3 more pilots than fighters, this would mean that MORE of 1/3 of the pilots would have to be at your "high" (aka 92) fatigue to see the first fighter being grounded. Do you want to say that in a squadron with 25 fighters and 33 pilots, you´ve got 9 (in words NINE) pilots with fat of 92? This would mean your first fighter would be grounded and only 24 in the air at best. Now I just wonder what you are doing if this is what you see.

Besides that, why should I put bad leaders into my squadron? Don´t fly 80% Cap because you end up in 30-40 fat (or 92 fat in your version of the game) and if you THEN even got a bad leader your fighters won´t fly? How many things more have to happen to stay grounded due to fat? This becomes more and more looking like you have to deliberately break something to have them not fly due to Cap. Sorry, this doesn´t happen by accident in my PBEM. [&:]

OK, here's what I'm talking about. I'll post the unit screen, and then the pilots below, and comment there.

[Bullwinkle58]

Here are the pilots:



Note that the CAP is not 80%, but the combined CAP/LRCAP is, and LRCAP is more tiring. Also, this unit has just come off a heavy combat day, and I have not replenished the pilots yet. Also note that this unit has an excellent CO. Look at Mr. Fowle. Even with over 300 missions, his fatigue is half that of FO Ross, who has only about 2/3 of the missions. So, we see that fatigue is not at all linear with mission load, but has a number of factors running under the hood.

This unit is also in a malaria zone base, a big contributor to their status as worn out. Normally I don't do 20% Rest in malaria bases. However, this is a front-line unit in PM, which is under heavy obligation at the moment, and I don't have another unit handy to relieve it since I'm in a huge struggle to the east at Tassafaronga. They'll have to manage. Even with the excellent leader their morale is at 25, so leadership only takes you so far.

So, based on MY experience, your statement that 80% CAP and 20% Rest never gets you out of the 30-40% fatigue range is . . . odd.

The question I can't answer, but may take a look at when I play the nexct turn, is what happens to the readiness status of THIS unit after I load up the replacement pilots? How many planes does it put up? I can look at the pilot list and compare misison count and see who flew. I'm not going to play today, but I'll try to remember to do that when I do the next turn.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Here are the pilots:



Note that the CAP is not 80%, but the combined CAP/LRCAP is, and LRCAP is more tiring. Also, this unit has just come off a heavy combat day, and I have not replenished the pilots yet. Also note that this unit has an excellent CO. Look at Mr. Fowle. Even with over 300 missions, his fatigue is half that of FO Ross, who has only about 2/3 of the missions. So, we see that fatigue is not at all linear with mission load, but has a number of factors running under the hood.

This unit is also in a malaria zone base, a big contributor to their status as worn out. Normally I don't do 20% Rest in malaria bases. However, this is a front-line unit in PM, which is under heavy obligation at the moment, and I don't have another unit handy to relieve it since I'm in a huge struggle to the east at Tassafaronga. They'll have to manage. Even with the excellent leader their morale is at 25, so leadership only takes you so far.

So, based on MY experience, your statement that 80% CAP and 20% Rest never gets you out of the 30-40% fatigue range is . . . odd.

The question I can't answer, but may take a look at when I play the nexct turn, is what happens to the readiness status of THIS unit after I load up the replacement pilots? How many planes does it put up? I can look at the pilot list and compare misison count and see who flew. I'm not going to play today, but I'll try to remember to do that when I do the next turn.

you are not making clear comments mate. When you and me are saying Cap you then post a screen of CAP and LRCAP combined. I´ve never said 80% LRCAP or 60% Cap 20% LRCAP or 50% Cap 30% LRACP, I´ve always said 80% Cap 20% rest and that´s a whole different story than what you post here. I´m at work now but I can sure post a screen of my pilots with 80% 20% just for comparison.

Long ago I´ve started a "complain thread" when I did LRCAP (don´t remember exactly but probably with something like 60%) over two or three hexes and after just two days the squadrons were totally unusable because fat was around 80 for everyone. This lead me to my statement of "LRACP is unusable, more or less" but not because of the fat grounding my aircraft, but because of fat trashing my 99 moral pilots in just a couple of days to unusable pilots due to low morale. So they did fly but bogeyed out when meeting the enemy due to low morale.

Comparing the mission numbers of two pilots in terms of fatigue is something that doesn´t make sense at all to me in this case. You can have pilots with 5 missions and insane fat, for example by using LRCAP. And a pilot with 3009859 missions can have 0 fat if he was stood down the last five turns. Again, you compare apples and oranges when you take this example of mixed CAP and LRCAP to my example when I always said 80% Cap 20% rest. And this also explains it to me now.

And by the way, your fat has done the same to moral as in my games, this squadron is unusable in my world because with 25 morale these fighters won´t do anything if the Japanese come calling... a single BOOOH and your fighters turn around.

How fat is calculated in LRCAP or CAP I don´t know, otherwise it´s just 1 point for 1 hex flown and get´s halved every turn the pilot is on the ground. At least that´s what it was in WITP IIRC and haven´t noticed anything different. There is a huge difference in CAP and fat though, intended or not, that´s something I don´t know. As I´ve never read about a change it seems to me that the change was unintended as Cap and fat in WITP was always kept at reasonable ranges due to "playability". Same was done with fat and nav search for example. Take a fresh squadron, max out fighters and pilots and set them to 80% CAP 20% rest and nothing else and look at them. Then rethink about your comment about fighters being grounded due to too high fat from Cap. As it probably won´t be above 40 fat it isn´t high for you anyway and we have reached a result in our discussion a couple of posts ago anyway. And the result (for me) was that 40 fat isn´t high for you, 80% Cap 20% rest doesn´t create higher fat in my games and this then doesn´t match your comment that if you set a squadron to 80% Cap 20% rest you would end up with your fighters on the ground because of too high fat. Anything else? [&:]

[CV2]

Put 2 to 3 times the number of pilots to planes in the group and fatigue is no longer an issue (in the above example with a 16 plane group you should be sporting 30 to 40 pilots, not the 14 pictured). The only thing you have to worry about then is aircraft fatigue. While I have never actually tracked it, if you max out your reserve aircraft, this will go a long way toward solving that problem as well.