When is a torpedo bomber not a torpedo bomber?

[PaxMondo]

Nice test ... THanks!

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It does not Dive Bomb. I'm not sure whether it level bombs or glide bombs, and I'm not sure it makes a significant difference in effect.

I would think that AA losses would be significantly different between level and glide. So, it would be nice to know the triggers for glide .vs. level bomb for TB's. Altitude, mission, etc. Thanks to any dev clarifying this.

[Hipper]

hi folks

you do all know that the "obsolete" Fairey swordfish was a fairly tolerable dive bomber as well as a torpedo plane

cheers

[Puhis]

Maybe so, but I think in this game only 'dive bombers' can dive bomb. Some dive bombers are also torpedo bombers, at least japanese late war B7A2 Grace.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mynok

It does not Dive Bomb. I'm not sure whether it level bombs or glide bombs, and I'm not sure it makes a significant difference in effect.

I would think that AA losses would be significantly different between level and glide. So, it would be nice to know the triggers for glide .vs. level bomb for TB's. Altitude, mission, etc. Thanks to any dev clarifying this.

If I use Kates bombing ground units, port or airfield, I set them at 9000 ft and the will level bomb. At 10k-15k(-20k ft?) they will glide bomb.

I think naval bombing might be the same, but I can't remember ever testing that.

[Mynok]

That fits my recollection of things Puhis.

1-6k LowNav level bombing
7-9k NavB level bombing
10-19k NavB glide(?) bombing
20k+ NavB level bombing

Now I've done some port attacks from 13k feet. Maybe I'll go back and check how the Kates I used attacked. I know they used the 800kg bombs (at least some of them did--others used torps).

Torps are not affected by the above AFAIK. It's possible they won't use torps at 20k+? I've never tested it.

[Mynok]

Caveat: Alfred's link above indicates 1k as the LowNav altitude, so the first band above may be suspect.

[Brady]

AFIK< Kates will use the 800 kg weapon type or they will use a torp if set to a port atack, the chances are better they will take a 800kg weapon type as historicaly they almost always took 800 kg weapons on port atacks, Pearl was the exception to the rule whear kates took a fair amount of torps on the raid.

If you look at the raids aganst darwin, the DEI and in the IO whear KB hit ports, the kates that sorteid to hit the ports took for the most part 800kg weapons, even Ryoju's Kates sorted with 800 kg bombs on port atacks.

Thiers an interesting thread over at J-Aircraft that details some of Her strikes in the IO, and her kates hit a fair number of ships (and sank many) with bombs from her Kates, Blody Shambels Vol I and II note some of her suxcess with bombs as well aganst ships Including DD's at sea.

Below Ryujo's Kanko-tai. B5N2 (nearest) plus B5N1 (furthest).



Image source indicates the following:

As for the use of the two subtypes (B5N1 and B5N2), photographic documents confirm this. In the excellent book writen by Michel Ledet "Samouraï sur porte-avions", the top photo on page 145 (credit Maru) shows two Ryûjo's Kates operating in the Bangka Area, near Sumatra. The plane in the foreground is a B5N2 and the plane in the background is a B5N1

Thanks to Froggy at J-Aircraft.

From an old thread:

Hi Brady,

Some years ago, I wrote an article for the french magazine "Le Fana de l'Aviation" which delt with the invasion of Netherland East Indies. Wath I remember about this action is as follows :

On Feb.17 1942, the dutch destroyer "Van Nes" escorted the sea liner "Sloet van de Beele" which was evacuating troops from Oosthaven to Java. The liner was sunk by 15 G3M2 of Genzan Kû. The destroyer was then attacked by B5N1/2 (the two models were used at the same time) from carrier Ryûjo and was hit by at least 3 bombs. When it sank, part of its crew was rescued by dutch floatplane Do-24K coded X-18 (52 men were safely transported to Tandjong-Priok).
Ryûjo's Sentô Kodoshocho is hidden in my files and It would take hours to find it. This document gives the exact number of planes involved in the mission, the names of crewmen and the amunitions used. As far as I remember, bombs used by Ryûjo's Kates for level bombing were of 60 kg but this needs to be confirmed.

Hope this will be of interest for you.
Cheers

Bernard

[spence]

Brady's post about the sinking of the Van Nes is interesting in that it details the sinking of a DD by bomb laden Ryujo Kates. With his knowledge or where to look and so forth I wonder if he can likewise detail an instance where the Ryujo Kates carried torpedoes when attacking ships.

Ryujo a/c are credited with sinking quite a few ships in the Bay of Bengal during the IO Raid but the only mention of torpedoes I can find for the whole operation is a practice session by the KB torpedo bombers for the Midway debacle. Every mention of Ryujo that I have found has her strike group using bombs.

[Brady]

From the Thread I liked above:

According to the ship's extant air records, Ryujo'sair operations during the war included a total of five torpedo armed sorties that occurred on three separate missions: A large bombing raid that included one torpedo equipped bird, and much later two small launches that each included a pair of torpedo equipped birds.-Mark E Horan

He amends this statement later thusly:

In regards to operations from Ryujo in which her aircraft carried either torpedoes or heavy (800 kg) bombs, her records show the following. I have included all of the aircraft that were include in the individual range/spot. Also note, the date is given based on Tokyo time, not US time:

1. 41-12-20, four B5Nx, one (torpedo), three (1x250 & 4x60 each)
2. 42-02-13, four B5Nx (1x800)
3. 42-04-06, five B5Nx, two (torpedo), three (1x250 & 4x60 each)
4. 42-04-06, five B5Nx, one  (1x800), two (1x250 & 4x60) , one B5Nx (4x60)

Obviously, I remembered incorrectly with the number of torpedo operations as the total was three sorties in two ranges, viz five in three, and the fact that on one (and only one) occasion, the ship launched four fully loaded aircraft in a single range.


It must be understoof that the B5N1, of which the Ryujo was partialy equiped, had problem launching with the torp from her, so the Torps were carried by the B5N2's she had on board (or so I have been lead to beleave).

Further:

I think the outstanding skills of the Ryujo Kankos navigators-bombardiers may be demonstrated by the cases of sinking of the two agile DDs, namely USS POPE and the Dutch one, HNMS VAN NES. Both have been attacked by the low-level bombing pattern with 250-kg and (mostly) 60-kg bombs- Nomad
 
 

[spence]

Very informative. IIRC the Ryujo carries 12 B5's in its complement. Did she ever/could she ever launch them all at once?. The size of the raids mentioned above (and the one against the Pope - IIRC 6 x B5's) seems to indicate that the same doctrine used by the KB was applied to the Ryujo (1/2 the strike planes in the raid...the other half held in reserve). That doctrine for the KB was born of the spot limitations for those large CVs.

[Brady]

The body of the Text in the Linked thread seams to sugest she could spot 5 to 6 fully loaded kates at once, but their are referances that show she could also launch her full complement of aircraft in short enough order to form a full strike package:
&nbsp;
Here's some detail on the two verifiable kills A5Ms scored on Dec 8 1941 -on the water though, so not aerial kills.&nbsp;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tills

Early on 8 December 1941, William B. Preston received a radio dispatch: "Japan started hostilities; govern yourselves accordingly."[4] Preston and her planes prepared for war. One Catalina took off immediately to search for Japanese ships in the area while Tills and the other Catalina stayed in the waters of Malalag Bay, ready to take off.[4]

&nbsp;
Shortly before 8:00 AM, nine Mitsubishi A5M4 "Claudes" escorting 13 Nakajima B5N1 "Kate" from the Japanese carrier Ryujo approached Malalag Bay from Davao Gulf. Ignoring USS William B. Preston, they straffed the two helpless Catalinas 101-P-4 and 101-P-7 from VP-101. Ensign Robert Tills was killed by enemy fire while onboard his Catalina. The rest of the crew escaped unharmed and the Catalina sank to the bottom of the bay with Tills's remains still onboard. Robert Tills's body was never found and he joined a list with 78,000 other Americans missing in action during World War II
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[Mynok]

Very interesting stuff there Brady.

[Puhis]

Yes, thanks a lot Brady, really good info!

But it must be BS, right? We all know that japanese CVLs could not launch Kates with torpedoes or 800 kg bombs... [:-]

Ryujo's flight deck was just 156,5 meters, and max speed was 29 knots.
For example Zuiho's flight deck was 23,5 meters longer, while max speed was just 1 knot slower. So if Ruyjo could launch torpedo planes...

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Brady

Shortly before 8:00 AM, nine Mitsubishi A5M4 "Claudes" escorting 13 Nakajima B5N1 "Kate" from the Japanese carrier Ryujo approached Malalag Bay from Davao Gulf. Ignoring USS William B. Preston, they straffed the two helpless Catalinas 101-P-4 and 101-P-7 from VP-101. Ensign Robert Tills was killed by enemy fire while onboard his Catalina. The rest of the crew escaped unharmed and the Catalina sank to the bottom of the bay with Tills's remains still onboard. Robert Tills's body was never found and he joined a list with 78,000 other Americans missing in action during World War II
[/i][/align]

This would basically be "range-dependent" wouldn't it Brady? If the range were short enough, there was plenty of time and fuel to spot and launch everything aboard a carrier while the rest burned fuel circling. But unfortunately the game doesn't really reflect such usage. It simply "gives" the Japanese the ability to launch "full complement strikes" from any range; which is something they certainly weren't capable of.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, thanks a lot Brady, really good info!

But it must be BS, right? We all know that japanese CVLs could not launch Kates with torpedoes or 800 kg bombs... [:-]

Ryujo's flight deck was just 156,5 meters, and max speed was 29 knots.
For example Zuiho's flight deck was 23,5 meters longer, while max speed was just 1 knot slower. So if Ruyjo could launch torpedo planes...

Japanese CVL's could launch B5N's with torps.....just not alot of them per strike....which was why they only carried a Chutai's worth while the rest of their capacity was used for fighters.

[Brady]

I thought I would post this in it's entirety as I found it to be very interesting, again from J-Aircraft C/O Mark E Horan:
&nbsp;
Gents;

My post above on the Ryujo shipping strikes on 5/6 April are just that - the shipping strikes - it does not included the operations against land targets.&nbsp; Note also, the Japanese records record ordnance expended not necessarily the entire ordnance load out.&nbsp; Depending on the events and comments one can determine if the entire ordnance load was expended or not.&nbsp; In the case of the heavier ordnance (torpedoes & 800 kg bombs particularly), landing back aboard fully loaded was not authorized, so even if an attack did not take place the ordnance was "expended".

So, the search/strike pairs that expended no ordnance did not find anything, and not being fully loaded, landed back aboard with their ordnance intact.&nbsp; My translation ability is barely above nil, so I do not pretend to know all the details.&nbsp; I surmise the following:

5 April: Range one (not included above) was composed of three B5Ns assigned to three single plane search sectors - no ordnance was expended and likely none was carried as single plane searches never expend any.

5 April: Range two was made up of 4 pairs of aircraft assigned to four search sectors.&nbsp; Apparently all aircraft were armed with 4 x 60 kg bombs each.&nbsp; One pair found nothing and returned with their ordnance.&nbsp; The pair that aborted evidently jettisoned theirs.&nbsp; Wish I could read the mission notes for the other two pairs

5 April: Range three apparently was launched to replace the aborted pair, likely armed as above, but whatever their target was, only half the ordnance - wish I could read the mission notes

6 April: Range one composed of two pairs assigned to two sectors.&nbsp; The ordnance expended show a different load out, but that is not necessarily the case, especially since the range was so small.&nbsp; It is possible that the target for the second pair did not warrant the expenditure of the entire load and that pair returned with the larger bombs.&nbsp; Again, wish I could translate the mission notes

6 April: Range two was a Chutai sized strike group against a known shipping target.

6 April: Range three did not expend and ordnance -&nbsp; though it is highly likely that they carried some as two plane efforts usually did - but again, wish I could read the notes

6 April: Range four, five, and six were the three Chutai sized strike groups against land targets.&nbsp; I disagree with Mike W's comment that the ordnance chief had ADD [:)].&nbsp; Rather, I think it was directly related to the availability of B5N2 aircraft in each Chutai capable of taking off with heavier loads.

Range four was composed of five planes with 1x250 & 4x60 each - I suspect all B5N1

Range five was composed of:
-- two planes with 1x800 each - I B5N2s as only they were capable of departing with such heavy loads
-- three with 1x250 & 4x60 each [although only 2x250s were expended, I believe the notes indicate that the other 250 failed to release] - again, I believe all B5N1s

Range six was identical to the first with five planes with 1x250 & 4x60 each - I believe all B5N1

Ryujo generally restricted her deckload launches to single Chutai efforts (five-six planes).&nbsp; The few exceptions where she made bigger efforts were:

On 8 December 1941, she started the war with a maximum strength launch in two ranges.&nbsp; A different notation was used for the ordnance expended making the identification of the bombs carried, at least by me, unknown. The first range was composed of a six-plane chutai of B5Ns carrying a load of 1 larger&nbsp; bomb and 5 smaller each.&nbsp; The second range was composed of an escort of 9 A5M4s and a seven-plane chutai of B5Ns carrying the same ordnance load as the first deckload.&nbsp; This second deckload completed its launch 45 minutes after the first deckload, and the entire strike group departed as one force.

On 13 February 1942 the second range of the day was composed of eight B5Ns with 1x250 & 4x60 each. Likely the extras were B5N2s.

On 1 March 1942 two ranges of six B5Ns armed as above were sent of separately, 65 minutes apart.

During the Aleutian operation the ship had received a number of new planes including both A6M2 fighters and B5N2 attack planes.&nbsp; While B5N1s were still carried, they now number less than 50% of the planes available.&nbsp; &nbsp;On 3 & 4 June her strikes were made in two Chutai sized deckloads, with escort, that departed separately, while on 5 June nine B5Ns made the single largest deckload effort of the war, nine atack planes.&nbsp; Six carried 2x250 & 2x60 each (likely all B5N2s), and three carried 2x250 each (at least one was a B5N1, the others could have been or were B5N2s that needed to drop weight because of a shorter deck run).

Hope this helps

Mark[/align]