AGC: Turn 1 Moves

[Q-Ball]

I think ComradePs advice is sound, someone give that a shot. I debated clearing Kaunus, but I can see the advantage of doing so. Plus, it will displace an airbase there, and probably give you more plane kills. Mine was totally "shooting from the hip", to get this started.

Can someone take a shot with a better setup for Turn 2?

[2ndACR]

Here is my typical turn 1 AGN setup. I did not do it, but usually I will attack the southern armor div and that infantry div out of the way. That allows you to get 2-3 armor div across the 1st main river. I did not do my FBD, but they would advance to right next to Kaunus and the AGN FBD would be sitting under one of the southern infantry div. You have to knock that southern armor div and infantry out of the way to cross the river due to ZOC against your armor. You sacrifice isolated units for distance because you will sweep the routed in front of you.

[2ndACR]

And here is my AGC turn 1 move. I leave that armor div south of Kaunus because, it is strong, plus I prefer to just kill it turn 2 with 1 div while the others move on to the next pocket.

[Q-Ball]

I like it, except for using those Mot Divs in the Pripet. I think you really need those to get over the Dnepr quickly, and sending them into the swamps they will lose alot of MPs getting back on dry land.

If Kaunus is cleared, it makes sense to leave that Tank Div alone.

I noticed you blew away all the border defenses opposite 16th Army; I leave a couple units there to be pocketed, but maybe blowing them away is OK too.

[ComradeP]

My preferred opening is the one as displayed in the AAR (it's not the best possible one with what I had in mind, but it worked) for my game with notenome, although sadly the intended gains (getting to Leningrad) didn't materialize due to the swamps completely blocking my advance.

3 mobile divisions across the Daugava, Riga can't be reinforced by land nor can the HQ's be railed out, no way for the Soviets to move units to the main breakthrough area where the Daugava runs diagonally, and two of the three swamps hexes are in German control/ZOC, making it unlikely/impossible that divisions railed to the area can move in.

[2ndACR]

I use the Motorized to make sure the pocket cannot escape. Yes, it takes an extra turn to get it back to dry land. I found that by completely blowing open the northern front that no ZOC hamper me at all. That maximizes my movement.

[Altaris]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I use the Motorized to make sure the pocket cannot escape. Yes, it takes an extra turn to get it back to dry land. I found that by completely blowing open the northern front that no ZOC hamper me at all. That maximizes my movement.

Getting the Baltics under your ZOC for Turn 2 is very critical. Helps to get the infantry really moving north on Turn 2, and also maximizes how much you can move your FBD's. And considering the further you go into the north, the more you need infantry, makes this doubly important. I consider getting across the Dvina with any mobile units possible as priority #1, any mot's that can't get across the river should be used to maximize ZOC takeover (and cutting off those ports west of Riga).

[Mynok]

I get across the Dvina as well. Usually with two panzer divs.

[2ndACR]

I can get 2 and sometimes if everything goes just right, 3 of them. Mostly 2. I did this one pretty quick and did not whack the normal units I usually in the pocket. Just wanted to show taking the western ports and why I take Kaunus. Figured if I was going to use a AGN corps that I might as well do them too

[Klydon]

Not sure when, but I will post what I have been working on for opening moves as well. Couple of observations:

First, getting the ports with the SS motorized in AGN is what I do as one of my secret "tricks". Why? Because if the units left in the area can join pockets connected to one of those ports (something that I have observed either happens or is possible in the AAR's), then they won't surrender on the second turn and you are either left trying to chase down routing Soviets or waiting yet another turn, which you simply can not afford to do. What I do usually is park the northern most infantry division on the line in the first port and after the SS have been by, I sea lift in either the SS police or the other division that are way back from the front and let them sit there while I move the SS motorized over closer to Riga. Both ports are blocked and with a tight grip of German controlled territory south of Riga, the Russians along the border are toast.

The thing I need to reevaluate is the drive on Minsk. Minsk starts the game with industrial stuff they can rail out and the Russian will immediately do that on their first turn. Parking a German unit next to Minsk does not stop this, so I will have to figure out if it is possible to get the rails cut or not. The objective in the past is to get a unit next to Minsk on the first move and also blow up as many of the level 2 forts as I can so the Soviets have nothing to form up a line on in terms of prepared positions.

[Timmeh]

If you force the issue with your inf, (normal vrs ai) you can see that the motorized units can now move maxium distance unimpeded by ZOC and you end up with many tiny pockets of routed units. Many of these either outright surrender ( had 8 or 9 units do this) before your next turn or dont unroute meaning just a bump into next turn to remove.

[Mynok]

Why waste all those movement points attacking units when you could just surround them and get your infantry as far forward as possible? If there is one key to AGN it is SPEED. You have got to get to around Pskov with enough to take it by Turn 4 or 5.

Routed units are not good in pockets. They can hop out if tapped.

And you don't want to be sending your panzers up into no man's land up there. L Corps is quite capable of clearing out whatever is left up there. 4th Panzer needs to be heading to Ilmen. Fast, fast, fast.

[JAMiAM]

2ndACR,

You have some potential problems here. The entire Bialystok pocket can have supply restored, which will make turn two a lot less productive.

[2ndACR]

You talking about the AGC pocket? I just saw it, I usually drop off a Motorized unit right at the rail line to block movement. This time I did not do it due to combat situation where a unit that needed to budge refused to budge and that forced me to re-direct it. oops

[Klydon]

Ok, I have my AGN and AGC versions here. This was a quick redo, so please forgive me if it is a bit sloppy, but I was in a hurry and it is still late. [;)]

For my purposes, I send XII infantry corps, attach 10th motor to XXXXVI panzer and they go south along with the 2 infantry and 1 cav that are south of B/L already anyway. This version takes that into consideration and I just bumped them back a bit. I also did not move HQ's, but did do some rail stuff.

The first shot is after I get done moving infantry with the exception of the SS motorized unit in PG4, which is shown after attacking the port hex and having the infantry from LII corps land there via sea movement. Basically, I use the back stuff first and roll forward from there. I know people like to leave the border troops alone except where absolutely necessary, but I disagree with this from the standpoint that you have advantages on turn 1 that you will never have again in the game. The lowered cost of attacks is just too big of an advantage to give up and I also look to knock the Russians out of their level 2 fortifications along the border and out of swamps, etc. It also helps shrink the size of the pocket. I also clean out Kaunas because that is where the rail repair unit is going and it is imperative that you move the repair unit along as quickly as possible and if that means you miss out on pocketing some Soviets, so be it.

[Klydon]

Ok, this is after the rest of the panzer/motorized divisions move. I tried several different ways, but could not cut the Minsk rail line to the south of the city, which is unfortunate. Too bad there is just a HQ unit there. If there was actually a crappy combat unit, you could attack it and win the hex with a battle. It is a case of being better off having no unit (and not losing control of the hex due to ZOC from Minsk) than to have a crappy combat unit (and lose control as a result of combat). I also tried popping Minsk with a armored and a motorized division as a test, but got rejected on a 1-3 attack. Tried it a couple of times and it just wasn't happening so I reloaded and finished up my moves.

Not shown on the map unfortunately, but I moved the 16 point armored division up the rail line just off the screen shot to the south. Now many would say the armor in the swamp is somewhat of a waste, but I don't think so. First, it helps secure the area in terms of keeping the Russians out of supply. Secondly, it cuts that rail junction which is huge. Between cutting that one there and the other units coming in to the north, the stack sitting in the swamp on the rail line is doomed because they simply can't move away fast enough. If I had not cut the line to the south, a Russian could have railed out the units if they had desired. The motorized division that appears at the edge of the swamp has an easy out through the woods and can continue to move wherever it needs to go.

The paths are so wide on these encirclements, the Russians can't cut them and my panzers will stay in supply with no issues. (I did check, all pockets are solid). I wound up with a few more routed units outside the pockets than I usually do, but overall, you get the idea of what I am trying to accomplish here.

[ComradeP]

Your forces are not across the Daugava near Riga, and the Soviets can move into the swamps east of the motorized division. You also drove "through" the future pocket, meaning a number of units routed out of it. One thing you need to watch is where the routed units go. Rout them once and they'll generally be in the pocket, touch them again and they'll jump to safety in many cases.

The SS taking Ventspils, sealifting an infantry division there and moving the SS east is a nice idea, though.

[Timmeh]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Why waste all those movement points attacking units when you could just surround them and get your infantry as far forward as possible? If there is one key to AGN it is SPEED. You have got to get to around Pskov with enough to take it by Turn 4 or 5.

Routed units are not good in pockets. They can hop out if tapped.

And you don't want to be sending your panzers up into no man's land up there. L Corps is quite capable of clearing out whatever is left up there. 4th Panzer needs to be heading to Ilmen. Fast, fast, fast.

Has to be a happy balance there somewhere, dont discount the reduced attack costs on turn 1. Its possible to route every single unit from the Merkys north, cut off Riga, and bounce the two airbourne units on the Daugava (although you wont be able to encircle those) with carefull movement of your motorized units you reduce the routed units to single hex pockets. More units outright surrender in between turns and those that remain routed turn two only need to be moved next to to eliminate.

edit: there is a random amount of luck involved here too, get unlucky and you bounce units (armour, mech) that you dont want to escape on turn 1 too far. There are rules governing the bounce but I see some randomness that makes it impossible to recreate the same way twice.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Your forces are not across the Daugava near Riga, and the Soviets can move into the swamps east of the motorized division. You also drove "through" the future pocket, meaning a number of units routed out of it. One thing you need to watch is where the routed units go. Rout them once and they'll generally be in the pocket, touch them again and they'll jump to safety in many cases.

The SS taking Ventspils, sealifting an infantry division there and moving the SS east is a nice idea, though.

Yeah, it is not as good as I have done in the past playing around with this. I did very poorly on the routed units, but in some cases, I had no choice to push them to get where I needed to go with the panzers and part of the issue I didn't get across up closer to Riga was because of the routed units in place that I tried to keep from pushing any more out. I still need to tinker with it a bit, but its close and some of the concepts I am after (some PG3 and 9th army help for AGN) are demonstrated along with the wide lanes, sea transport, etc. The other thing I do try to set up that I have seen lacking is a rail repair plan. (one of the reasons for shoving stuff out of Kaunas for example). In most cases for what I have shown, the rail lines are all set to be repaired for max and there is nothing the Russians can do about it while if I was a Russian player, I would make every effort to reZOC and/or occupy rail lines to slow down the repair effort.

One final note is I did a couple of things differently than I had been because I was trying to figure out a way to cut the rail lines behind Minsk to prevent the Russians from evacuating the industry. I was not successful at that, so there are a couple of things that I would likely change to get more units in the pocket since I know I can't get Minsk on the first turn. Just one of those deals of time available unfortunately and certainly experience and practice will help the execution of any big plan like this.

[Mynok]

The furthest forward panzer division from 3rd panzer can cut the Minsk line. I did it last night playing around. It can't do any attacks though. Other units will have to clear any combat units north of Minsk so it can get there. Well worth it IMO. Worth much more than sending part of 3rd panzer to AGN like everyone seems to want to do.

There's an argument for doing that at some point, but not on the first turn.