Notice for All

[Kitakami]

Originally posted by Mojo
I understand the dilema oh sensitive green one. (Igotta be quick cause I can smell the rice cooking. red beans and rice for dinner tonight. I do love andouille sausage)

Man...

Living in the West Coast AND eating andouille... you must be in heaven <g>. Andouille gumbo and Oregon red wine... there is a combination to enjoy.

Returning to the thread, the offensive connotation of the contraction "Jap" comes, if I am not mistaken, from the WW II period. Newer generations who did not live though that time (myself included) cannot relate to this particular meaning of the word. Newer generations just have no way to relate to the fear/anger/patriotism/ignorance/acceptance of dictatorships of one form or another/etc. of that period. Thus, some use the word freely without knowing its original use was derogatory.

We also would have to agree that a lot of racist hatred historically has come out of fear... of the unknown. Nowadays we are so much more informed about cultures other than our own, that the fear is much lessened, except in extremist groups.

So I think we can safely say that in this forum, when the contraction "Jap" is used, none of us means anything demeaning or degrading by it. Japan is an ancient culture that has successfully become one of the economic powerhouses of the world, and that is something that I, at least, respect very much.

Now I have learned that for Japanese people being polite is very important, and I have to concede that calling a Japanese person a "Jap" is definitely not polite.

I, for one, tend not to use such contractions unless the person(s) I am speaking/writing to would call themselves that. As an example, I do not mind being called "latino," but I would be offended if someone called me a spick. So I would use Brit, Aussie, Kiwi, etc. only if the person I am speaking/writing to doesn't mind.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Kitakami


Man...

Living in the West Coast AND eating andouille... you must be in heaven <g>. Andouille gumbo and Oregon red wine... there is a combination to enjoy.
...

You know sometimes life is just too sweet;)

[showboat1]

Hey, Kitikami, if you ever get into Louisiana I'll hook you up with some SERIOUS Cajun cooking.

Americans are a little sensitive to censorship since it's such a hot topic here in the US. Other parts of the world seem to not mind a little for the sake of "politeness."

I get easily worked up on such isses since I believe that people get too sensitive about things such as racial slurs. Where I live my people are constantly referred to as coon asses. Not very polite. Do I mind? Nope.

By the way, I had a Japanese foreign exchange student this year. I had to explain to her that thought most American had NO IDEA that being called a "baka gaijin" wasn't a compliment she might not want to use it. So muchfor politeness. She explained much about Japanese culture and Wasp is correct in that WW II is not emphasized in Japanese history classes. When we got to WW II in World History and she learned of the Japanese atrocities, she left class crying. Its a shame really, those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it.

This will be my last post here. I move onto to other things. Sayonara

[Wasp]

Dear Goblin,

Well, as a person who understands the history and the origins of the word, it hurts me. All I am saying is that to those who know their history, it is quite painful. Would it be so hard to put JPN rather than jap? For me, it's a matter of respect. Out of respect of everyone, I will write out everything just so that there is no miscommuication. The world is a pretty big place: 10 people 10 minds. I also definitely appreciate those of you who understand the message and are willing to discontinue the use. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Perhaps, now that we all understand this issue, I hope that we will become more sensitive and more open minded to the huge world around us.

And by the way, when I saw "Jap" being used so freely in the post, it made me feel very uncomfortable, because it made me think "man, for all these people to use this word so freely, these people must have no respect for anyone" That was my original thought. Because when a word is used so casually, and when a problem arises it will certainly be used in a harmful way. When I first saw these posts, I was quite confused and disappointed. Seeing posts such as "sunk two jap carriers" etc made me think that some people still carry the hatred in their conscious/unconscious mind. I think just for the sake of making sure misunderstandings do not happen between people, we should try to end this, because this word can too easily be misunderstood.

I also understand that the not all words are specificially "evil" however I believe certain words just take a special place in history, and can cause major misunderstandings and conflicts between us, and we should be more careful of what we say before we open our mouth or write it. Even though a person may have written the word harmlessly, to a person with knowledge of history, it can become offensive. Which is why I brought this topic up.

If I may, I would like to request that Matrix fix the names of the game folders which include the name "jap" because there are so many people out there who may buy the game, see the names of the folder and become offended by it. Personally when I saw the name of the folders, I was quite offended, seeing a folder such as japship_back made me think wow, are these guys trying to promote hate? If it was jship or IJNship or something else, I would not mind, however; there is too big of a chance that people will misunderstand what you meant and become very offended. I just don't understand why people would rather use 'Jap' in an "unoffensive way" when it could cause serious problems. Just for the sake of avoiding conflict, would it not be better to use JPN? It is still a same 3 letter word, and JPN does not carry the derogatory meaning that "jap"does. This is exactly the kind of situation that JPN was created for so that there will be no misunderstanding between people.

Wasp

[Goblin]

Wasp, this is where we part on our opinions. Edit other people's writing? Whoa. If I print something, thats my right, and no one should come along and edit it. Period.

File names? Those are for the purpose of shortening something. If someone wants to be that sensitive, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Goodness, where is the line? Where do you stop worrying about offending people? This game offends ALOT of people. Its too violent. It promotes hate. Etc. Ban it?

How can you, or anyone else be offended by a word that wasn't intended to hurt, but play a game that represents Japanese and Americans and others killing eachother in horrible ways?

[mogami]

Hi, I don't want to be in this thread. This is a website dealing with war games and history. We don't call each other names. We call the cyber guys in our wargames names in AAR's. No one thinks Germans today are fascists but we "drive back the fascist invaders of the motherland" everyday. If you see anyone calling another poster a name report him. If you read AAR's and Japs and Commies and fascists are getting killed remember where you are and who we are. Context.....CONTEXT!!!!
We did not write history. Race is not a factor in any wargame.
Race did contribute to the wars. Both sides had racists problems.
We don't. Name calling is not funny, but I have never seen it outside the "Art of War" where is was not part of an AAR and in keeping with the humour or spirt of good gaming. Mark Twains
"Life on the Mississippi" and "Huckleberry Fin" have been in the past censored for the use of a word. The censors ignored the fact that the word was part of the vocabaly of the time and the writter was one of the most senitive of the plight of the people of any American and his works did help bring about change. Merely focusing on a word misses the point. There has to be intent or freedom of expression suffers and feelings are hurt for no reason.
Getting rid of the word achives nothing. If someone wants to insult or hurt you they can achive that and never use anything but polite sounding or acceptable words. Likewise knowing that the source is a friend and looking at the context and intent there can be no doubt that no one here uses any word to offend.
We don't need censorship, we need understanding.
We begin as friends and this web site is a very friendly place.
Political correctness belongs to 2002 not 1941

[Wasp]

Dear Goblin,

Perhaps asking people to change is imposible and I may be asking for too much and I understand. I was not trying to say that people should be able to edit other's writing. It is their opinion, they are entitled to it and I respect that.

About the file names. Please don't take it the wrong way, I am just concerned that some person may be offended by it, even though it's just a file name, little things mean alot.

Copied from your earlier post:
=-----------
How can you, or anyone else be offended by a word that wasn't intended to hurt, but play a game that represents Japanese and Americans and others killing eachother in horrible ways?
=----------------
The game is fine as it is I have no problem with it.
Are you telling me that I should not be offended because "Jap" is not an offensive word? I am not so sure what you mean by this. Could you pease clarify? Are you telling me that there is nothing wrong with "jap" just because it is not in a sentence that degrades japanese? Are you telling me that when a person of Japanese origin is called a "jap" he/she is simply supposed to smile and go on about their business? If so, I must sincerely disagree. I think that the word it's self is so degrading that it simply makes any sentence seem vulgar weather it is not meant to be degrading or not. You know, I am very glad that we as humans are able to freely express our ideas and our opinions with out turning this into a personal issue. After all, this is the great US of A:) the home of the free and the brave:)

Wasp

[Wasp]

As long as it's just a wargame that we are here to enjoy, I guess I will be able to tolerate it. Perhaps some of the posts gave me a negative impression. If people do not have problems writing American, why do we have problems writing Japanese? It is still a same 8 letter word. As long as the word does not cause any problems between all of us and as long as everyone understands you are only describing it in game terms, not to degrade our past ancestors or to degrade anyone else and everyone understands this, we can get along fine. I am not here to start a big fuss or a huge fight over this. I am just here to say that the use of the word may cause some people to be offended.

That's enough of me and let us enjoy what we have right now. UV and perhaps WITP, once it comes out.

Wasp

[Sabre21]

Wasp

I have to agree with Mogami and Goblin. To attempt to edit these posts would be in violation of our basic rights. No one on this forum uses the word Jap in a derogatory fashion and this topic should never have been brought up. To bring up racist issues on this forum pains me..why someone feels the need to make a statement like that is beyond me. Oh...and I do know my world history...and take no pain in hearing the word Jap...why because it's only a word. Just as Mogami said..it's the context of how it's used. I shall continue to use this word when I play these games or I will use the word "Nips"...that too was used frequently during that era...and is the word my dad...who fought against the Japs used regularly...but he never used it in a derogatory sense either. I'm not even sure if Nip is derogatory...since it is short for Nippon and Nipponese, but then I don't care...since I don't use it in that context. So if you take offense in a word....look at the context it is used before raising the racist issues.

Andy

[Goblin]

Originally posted by Wasp
Are you telling me that when a person of Japanese origin is called a "jap" he/she is simply supposed to smile and go on about their business?

He!! no, I'm not telling you that! If someone calls a person of any national origin any kind of derogatory word or phrase, they definately should stand up for themselves!

My point is, no one here called anybody any names. As Mogami stated, these are pixel characters in a game, and the AAR's/DAR's are fictional stories not directed at a living person.

My apologies if I was unclear.

I see from your posts that your primary concern is not for yourself but for Japanese readers that may come along. That is commendable, and you have definately made us think on the subject. Hopefully these potential readers are fellow wargamers who will understand the non-hostile context in which the words are used.

eric

[crusher]

as i stated before this thread is in the WRONG forum if you want to fight over names go somewhere else and do it this forum is for game topics.

[Goblin]

Wasp is refering to game threads with his complaint. How is that not a game topic?

[Sam-I-am]

Ya know? Im sorry, but I am getting just a lil fed up with all this "white mans guilt" being shoved down my throat.

I refuse to be politicly correct to appease people just because it is the in crowd thing to do.

I use "Jap" because "J-a-p" IS short for J-A-P-anese.

It does not take a rocket scientest to see how I come about using this abrevation.

I am also too lazy to type out the whole word and most important,
I cannot spell worth a crap.

Im sorry again, but not this time. I feel no guilt.




no more from me on this subject.

[mjk428]

Wasp-

I have been careful not to use the word in question out of courtesy. I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend anyone. I agree it's not a nice word but I do believe it's acceptable to use it in a role-playing context.

OTOH, I don't appreciate being preached to. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. It might have been more appropriate to nicely let someone know that YOU had been offended by a specific post. Instead you've tried to enforce YOUR view with a thread of "NOTICE TO ALL".

As for any emnity that may exist towards the Japanese people, it was brought on by their actions. Your comparison to African Americans is insulting to them. They were victims while the Japanese were the aggressors. I'm sick of moral equivalence.

While you want us to imagine how terrible it would be for a Japanese person to see a WORD, imagine how the victims of Japanese atrocities would react to this thread. I won't bother to list any atrocities since I'm sure they are well known on this board.

You may have meant well but I feel your original post was lacking in wisdom at best and designed to stir up trouble at worst. I'm sorry if I've offended you.

Sincerely,
Marty K

BTW - I find it funny that you have a screen name that could easily be considered offensive. That term is not used as a compliment. - Also, I agree that this thread would be better placed in "Art of Wargaming".

[Goblin]

Some of you have crossed the fair is fair line. If any of you had voiced a legitimate concern, you would want to print it without condemnation from the rest of us. Even if you do not agree with Wasp, at least respect the fact that he has an opinion like the rest of us, and the right to voice it.

Now you will argue that you have the right to voice yours too, and you do. Wasp has been polite, and we all should too, IMHO.

[Goblin]

Originally posted by mjk428
As for any emnity that may exist towards the Japanese people, it was brought on by their actions. Your comparison to African Americans is insulting to them.

Comparing the Japanese people today with what happened then is doing the exact same thing. You are insulting them.

I am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying.

[mjk428]

Comparing the Japanese people today with what happened then is doing the exact same thing. You are insulting them.

So we are all supposed look deep into our souls but let's not ask the same of Wasp? Besides, when I'm on this board or playing a historic wargame, I'm not thinking about the Japanese people of today. As has been previously stated, lets keep things in context.

When Wasp complained about the filenames I had enough. Maybe we should remove the letters P, J & A from our keyboards.

am not going to post again on this thread. This was a civil discussion of a valid point of view, and now it is an 'Art of Wargaming' thread, which is the lowest thing I can think of saying.

That's where it belonged in the first place.

[Wasp]

Well, I have never said the Japanese were innocent for what they did through out the war. Personally, I dislike the government of Japan for hiding the whole war by erasing and not teaching the younger generation of atrocities they have committed. Therefore I will not get into an argument over how the Japanese have hurt people because I understand what the Japanese have done to the people of Asia and know what they did was Wrong. Which is the very reason I despise the government of Japan. If you are trying to tell me that I condone Japanese action, I must say that I absolutely do not condone Japanese action during the war and I am not trying to make up excuses for them.

Did I not mention earlier in the post about the screen name? Has nothing to do with anything derogatory.

If you think that all Japanese are simply bad and evil. It is not true. There are some of us who know the history and feel really bad for what happened then. If one is to speak evil of Japanese, it should be people who were directly hurt by them, not people who just think they should hate the Japanese just because of the past. And those who were hurt by the Japanese, I encourage them to speak up because the Japanese government makes all kinds of attempts to hide history.

That is all I have to say---10 people 10minds I understand and respect everyone's opinion and it's cool that you can come out and say what you have on your mind.

I am not trying to create an utopia or anything. I am not asking for a double standard. All I ask is for understanding and respect of what I have to say. After all, don't I respect everyone's opinion? I was not involved in the terrible war and most of this generation was not either. I am just trying to promote understanding and unity between all of man kind. If you got the impression that I was simply trying to create problems, then I am sorry that you have got the wrong idea of what I did. Discussing an sensitive topic with out letting our emotions get the best of us is a good way to fix problems it is not so when emotions get the best of you. I was hoping that some of you could do this and we could have an understanding between everyone, but obviously some of us just could not do this. However that is ok, I can understand and cope with it. It is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it.

Well, this probably will be my last post in about this topic unless something else comes up.
Notice: I am not trying to create problems, just trying to promote unity and understanding, not hate and bad past memories.

Good day to you all

[mjk428]

Did I not mention earlier in the post about the screen name? Has nothing to do with anything derogatory.

Yes and I believe you. In most cases, at least on this board, nothing derogatory is meant with the word you took exception to. I don't use the word and I don't like seeing the word.

I have no anomosity towards Japanese people at all. They are allies of ours. The past is the past and I only brought it up to illustrate that it's not as simple as removing a word.

Political correctness and over-sensitivity are rampant in this country and I'm quite fed up with it. I understand the good intentions but there also must be balance.

Finally, I do apologize for insinuating that you may have been looking to cause trouble. I don't believe that's true and I hope you will accept my apology. Please know it's nothing personal; these are just tense times.

Best Wishes,
Marty K.

[tohoku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
I have to admit, I am really torn here.

[QUOTE]


I, for what it's worth , think it comes down to context and a lack of forethought on the part of most posters.

In most places in the RW it's insulting and should be avoided unless germane to the context (like, discussing whether it's an insult!).

Here, however, I think there is more of a case that it is an abbreviation in most instances. Many people don't intend it as an insult. They're either just careless and don't think of it or they're *trying* to be insulting.

As an abbreviation, it's poorly thought out. IJN or IJA are probably better, but when talking about the nation etc why not type the extra letters?

Jap

Japanese

Five extra letters. Hell, if five extra letters is too much for people why not use "Jpn" for Japan and "Jpns" for Japanese?




tohoku
YMMV