Winter again

[2ndACR]

Even 5 months of fighting will see 90% of the troops combat strength/morale return with just a week off the line. Maybe not replacements, but the actual troops will be ready for action within a week or 2 of rest. I doubt it would suffer very bad at all.

During Desert Storm my unit was on the move in combat ops for basically 4 days straight. After 24 hours down time, after the cease fire, I know my Bradley crew and myself  were fully rested and ready to fight some more. Not the same as 5 months, but it is amazing how fast combat troops return with a little rest and down time. I know my grandfather said that a week off the line during WW2 was about all his unit could handle before the fights and such started amongst themselves.

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: pipewrench
is that a year in gametime ie:1941-1942 or 1 full year of your life?

If your patience extends out 365 days then you are 1 cool cat![:D]

I can easily give a full year of my life to try and understand the game, how to play better, and just what is and is not right with the game. I only turned 45 last month, I can easily do a year at this - for me the game is that good. I expect years from now to be playing it.

Some of the pronouncements, after even just a couple months playing, seem rather extreme and overwrought.

[Wild]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

ORIGINAL: pipewrench
is that a year in gametime ie:1941-1942 or 1 full year of your life?

If your patience extends out 365 days then you are 1 cool cat![:D]

I can easily give a full year of my life to try and understand the game, how to play better, and just what is and is not right with the game. I only turned 45 last month, I can easily do a year at this - for me the game is that good. I expect years from now to be playing it.

Some of the pronouncements, after even just a couple months playing, seem rather extreme and overwrought.

I fully agree with this bit of common sense. As i have stated many times before, we have not given the game the time and testing yet to know for sure if the balance is right or not. I want to see more AAR's that go into 42 or 43 first.
I am gradually starting to believe that winter may indeed be a problem for the Germans, but i am not sure if this is actually the case or that i have just listened to so much complaining that i'm starting to be brainwashed.
I just don't understand what the big rush is. There is time to collect data and make informed decisions. The game's not going anywhere.
And before anyone accuses me of being a Soviet fanboy. I only play the Germans.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Part of the secret is in what Zhukov mentions in that a lot of Russian units were short (or missing) artillery in the winter of 1941. Many German fortifications held because the Russians didn't have the heavy guns to disrupt them. As it stands right now in the AARs I have seen, I don't see where the Russians are missing much of anything since it is pretty much a given that the vast majority of games will not see the losses the Russians historically suffered due to better Russian play. I also don't know how the game mechanics work in regards to fortification bonuses and what it takes to overcome them, although one would assume that artillery and engineers help play a key role in the reduction of fortifications. 

You are probably right about the artillery, but that is not really my point. My point is that Zhukov thought Germans in fortifications were harder to dislodge that Germans not in fortifications. In the game, that is not the case, not during blizzard.

[von Beanie]

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

The only thing to help the Germans during the winter I have seen so far is trying to penetrate really deep and destroy as many rail lines as possible, then retreat towards prepared positions, thus forcing the Soviets to face some supply issues if they want to attack.

I have seen this mentioned as a German strategy several times, but it won't work against an experienced Soviet player. The Soviets can build RR repair support units for their armies during the mud turns, and watch them move forward one hex per turn during their winter offensive. Perhaps if the Germans run away a long distance and offer no defense this might work, but against the German retreating defenses I've run up against moving the Soviet railhead forward behind the front lines and supplying my advancing units has never been a problem. That's partly why I want to see German units defending cities retain a higher CV several turns after they have been surrounded if supplied by air.

[Farfarer61]

The big Axis ahistorical advantage is perfect cartography and hindsight. You know more or less the maximum you can advance by Turn 18 and where. You can search out all the highest population Towns before turn one. Choose your north-south lines of towns two hexes apart ( you can create 4 belts) and plop Fort Zones on them as soon as you pass them. Come Mud and snow, you should be pulling back to your first and second line of Fort Zones, and disbanding the Zones. If needed your Regular units will finish digging. As each fort line falls ( and they will ), pull back to and repeat ( disband Zone etc.). Your units should be mitigated gainst the Winter ( as best best possible with the best die roll chance). Most or your armour should be railed back west and refit. At least one Infantry Army too. These will be your offensive troops or your emergency reserve. You will retreat 8 - 12 hexes. If you keep armour forward in an urban area, try and sortie, fight and get back into the Urban all on the same turn. No City is worth your forces being encircled there. If in doubt, bug out. Note that the damage you have down to that Sov city means it wont be if use until you are ready to retake it in 42 anyway. Collect your Mountain units into a counter-attack force. My 2 cents, and the best I have come up with so far.

[rolypoly]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
But I also know that even in Alaska, I can sit in my bunker with a unzipped jacket on and be very comfortable (portable stoves rule). I know that even in 1941, dug in troops would have fires burning, overhead protection, door covers, and anything else to survive. Even on guard duty in the trench, they would rotate 15 out and probably 45 in.

In deed they would; and also they would (and did) scavenge every bit of clothing from dead russians they could.

From what I´ve read so far, implicates that after the battle, Germans rushed from their foxholes to scavenge every bit of clothing they could, before the bodies would freeze to a stone.

Then again, I have to think of the combat exhaustion. Retreating continuiosly without food and sleep would make me really want to take a short nap on the comfortably soft snowbed. Also, when retreating, do you really have time to build up dugouts and such?

I´ve served one winter in the army here, like every grown finn, and can say that it´s not the cold that kills you. It´s when you surrender to the coldness -and one could imagine that a small injury or just about anything will make you prone to KIA rather than WIA.

So far, it´s been the coldest winter for decades this season (k, I do live indoors though =) but already the coldness is doing a small bodycount here. Like this one dude, that I read about from the papers: He called to emergency, and reported that he dont have a clue of where he is, except there´s a farm house where he cant get in. Ambulancemen found him dead, he froze to death in a matter of minutes - possibly because he was drunk and found out it might be a good idea to sit and wait for the rescue.

Im an axis player and would like to see a satisfactory-solution-to-everyone to the blizzard issue before starting the grande campaign though.

Here was my contribution to the thread to give some view about how the cold stuff works, since 1941 winter was really cold. -52 at the lowest.

edit: oh, and almost forgot the point - I think fortified units should get only mild penalty aganist the blizz - that´s why i quoted 2ndACR

[PeeDeeAitch]

My basic point has been that the winter should be tough, and it should be "the" hump to get across.  We have dissected the first turns, thought about ensuing turn strategies, but this is the part of the game that it will take the longest to learn right. There is a lot going on, from the basic mechanics of the game, to the psychological (if you don't believe me, harken back to that first time you saw your units start to freeze as the CVs nosedived).

I do not buy that learning this is not fun, at least for me. I understand your mileage may vary. I have been kicked around 2 times in head to head - the second time not as bad.  I expect that slight learning to increase over time.

Heck, I choose the harder side to play, it should be harder.

(and for those who might care, I have voiced my problems with other aspects of winter, and I am not all right with my play - but I do sense I know at least one culprit in my bad form in winter, and I am ok pointing the finger at that idiot)

[Klydon]

I modified the Operation Typhoon scenario as a quick fix to give the Germans something to play with blizzard conditions for a longer period of time (extended the game to 5 March). It is not a "real" scenario that should be played to win or lose, but rather something to sandbox with and work on various strats with towns, etc. Hopefully someone will post a full campaign with both sides as players going into say snow or mud.

[Pipewrench]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

My basic point has been that the winter should be tough, and it should be "the" hump to get across.  We have dissected the first turns, thought about ensuing turn strategies, but this is the part of the game that it will take the longest to learn right. There is a lot going on, from the basic mechanics of the game, to the psychological (if you don't believe me, harken back to that first time you saw your units start to freeze as the CVs nosedived).

I do not buy that learning this is not fun, at least for me. I understand your mileage may vary. I have been kicked around 2 times in head to head - the second time not as bad.  I expect that slight learning to increase over time.

Heck, I choose the harder side to play, it should be harder.

(and for those who might care, I have voiced my problems with other aspects of winter, and I am not all right with my play - but I do sense I know at least one culprit in my bad form in winter, and I am ok pointing the finger at that idiot)

your not an idiot for learning or trying new things to expand your learning of the game,

I am very curious as to your 2nd post when you said that you learned quite a bit and did better against your opponent to the point that you recovered better in march, Were you able to make any headway in 42? and if so could your provide some detailed insight on what you tried differently.

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: pipewrench
your not an idiot for learning or trying new things to expand your learning of the game,

I am very curious as to your 2nd post when you said that you learned quite a bit and did better against your opponent to the point that you recovered better in march, Were you able to make any headway in 42? and if so could your provide some detailed insight on what you tried differently.

First of all, I do not chalk up my successes in the second game to much more than the changes in beta 5 (et al).

I ran, more or less, the "rubber band" defense noted above, slow retreats in tough areas (I always seem to suffer south of Tula to the Kharkov region), more hedgehog in other places. I always kept retreat lines open by backing up the hedgehog, and units can always move one hex - the backup meant they pulled back to an existing entrenchment. My losses were still 90k-100k per turn, but mostly through attrition.

I almost lost big time in a couple of places - the Sturm division was in a nice level 4 town and got surrounded, but an excursion of tanks righted that and they could pull back that 1 hex, later a corps of the 2nd Panzer Army got too comfortable holding a spot in February and had to get extracted the same way. Both units survived in part because they were in good forts and had kept higher CVs.

Most of the armor was hoarded, but close to the front when possible for spoiling attacks - they were either in level 4 towns (single units) or cities (2 units) or urban (3). They never (except for the problem above) wintered outside of a town, and even then not til February.

As I noted elsewhere, I saw well led units in Feb having some higher CVs, they had been hiding all winter but I did see signs of some stronger forces.

Spring, and unfortunately the end of the game as my opponant is off to forn parts to do oil rig technical things, saw some new things:

1 - units recovered far nicer than before, I chalk this up to the limitation of the TOE bug and the higher morale of replacements (it seems).

2 - higher recovery allowed my mostly hoarded (excepting the case of the Panzer corps I almost wasted) tanks to hit him harder than the trial I had before - they had higher CVs, mostly full TOEs from being warm all winter, and hit some strung out places quite hard. I did take the risk of moving them closer to the front on the last turn before snow (playing non-random weather allowed me this prescience), and so they were not so far back. In the south the 4th Panzer Army did a 3 turn leapfrog from more interior cities toward the front - kind of hard but they never got caught in the open. I airdropped fuel to them as best I could the last turn of blizzard so they had gas for snow.

3 - the infantry (excepting in the center where they had been chewed up quite badly) were 4/5/6 cv in snow, and soon got better as fatigue went down. They could start hitting in stacks and 3-hex clusters right away.

Most of the better recovery is not due to my wonderful game play (the 2nd and 4th armies were toasted right proper in winter, the 9th and 18th faired little better) but due to the changes in TOE and morale of replacements. It is not perfect, but I didn't have the same idiot infantry divisions I had suffered with before in 1942.

-edit - I don't even want to talk about the 6th Army's state in March of 1942. Lets just say that they were shamed, beaten, bruised, and punched around.

[CharonJr]

von Beanie: Yes, I basically mean pulling back quite a distance and only defend there, that's why I think that just 1 hex a time and a fighting retreat is not worth it. Most German divisions should still have a headstart once the blizzard hits. But this will mean giving about a lot of hexes.

Does anybody know how many rail hexes the Soviet RR units can repair each turn? Just the 1 mentioned here or more than that?

[Senno]

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

ORIGINAL: pipewrench
your not an idiot for learning or trying new things to expand your learning of the game,

I am very curious as to your 2nd post when you said that you learned quite a bit and did better against your opponent to the point that you recovered better in march, Were you able to make any headway in 42? and if so could your provide some detailed insight on what you tried differently.

First of all, I do not chalk up my successes in the second game to much more than the changes in beta 5 (et al).

I ran, more or less, the "rubber band" defense noted above, slow retreats in tough areas (I always seem to suffer south of Tula to the Kharkov region), more hedgehog in other places. I always kept retreat lines open by backing up the hedgehog, and units can always move one hex - the backup meant they pulled back to an existing entrenchment. My losses were still 90k-100k per turn, but mostly through attrition.

I almost lost big time in a couple of places - the Sturm division was in a nice level 4 town and got surrounded, but an excursion of tanks righted that and they could pull back that 1 hex, later a corps of the 2nd Panzer Army got too comfortable holding a spot in February and had to get extracted the same way. Both units survived in part because they were in good forts and had kept higher CVs.

Most of the armor was hoarded, but close to the front when possible for spoiling attacks - they were either in level 4 towns (single units) or cities (2 units) or urban (3). They never (except for the problem above) wintered outside of a town, and even then not til February.

As I noted elsewhere, I saw well led units in Feb having some higher CVs, they had been hiding all winter but I did see signs of some stronger forces.

Spring, and unfortunately the end of the game as my opponant is off to forn parts to do oil rig technical things, saw some new things:

1 - units recovered far nicer than before, I chalk this up to the limitation of the TOE bug and the higher morale of replacements (it seems).

2 - higher recovery allowed my mostly hoarded (excepting the case of the Panzer corps I almost wasted) tanks to hit him harder than the trial I had before - they had higher CVs, mostly full TOEs from being warm all winter, and hit some strung out places quite hard. I did take the risk of moving them closer to the front on the last turn before snow (playing non-random weather allowed me this prescience), and so they were not so far back. In the south the 4th Panzer Army did a 3 turn leapfrog from more interior cities toward the front - kind of hard but they never got caught in the open. I airdropped fuel to them as best I could the last turn of blizzard so they had gas for snow.

3 - the infantry (excepting in the center where they had been chewed up quite badly) were 4/5/6 cv in snow, and soon got better as fatigue went down. They could start hitting in stacks and 3-hex clusters right away.

Most of the better recovery is not due to my wonderful game play (the 2nd and 4th armies were toasted right proper in winter, the 9th and 18th faired little better) but due to the changes in TOE and morale of replacements. It is not perfect, but I didn't have the same idiot infantry divisions I had suffered with before in 1942.

-edit - I don't even want to talk about the 6th Army's state in March of 1942. Lets just say that they were shamed, beaten, bruised, and punched around.

I agree with your points 1-3. It matches what I have seen in my games against the AI. I had 16=16 units again come the Summer offensive. So I do believe based on what I am seeing that the experience and TOE bugs have been rectified.

We will need to see full AAR's of games played completely under Beta 5 to have the full and complete picture.

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

Does anybody know how many rail hexes the Soviet RR units can repair each turn? Just the 1 mentioned here or more than that?

They can repair 1 hex per line with CB's/ RR Brigades per turn. Depends how many of these su's he has at FRONT,STAVKA level really.
First NKPS arrives turn 64.

[Mynok]

I had 16=16 units again come the Summer offensive

Infantry units?

[Senno]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I had 16=16 units again come the Summer offensive

Infantry units?

Yes. This is versus the AI though. And a complete Beta 5 game. No patching from betas 3-4.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: cookie monster

ORIGINAL: CharonJr

Does anybody know how many rail hexes the Soviet RR units can repair each turn? Just the 1 mentioned here or more than that?

They can repair 1 hex per line with CB's/ RR Brigades per turn. Depends how many of these su's he has at FRONT,STAVKA level really.
First NKPS arrives turn 64.

The key here is while you can repair as many lines as you want, the point is that it is 1 hex per turn in the direction you need to go in, so it is going to be slow until turn 64.

[CharonJr]

OK, so deep penetrations with destoying the rail and then pull back when the blizzards hit might work vs. a human, too, since it will take long to repair the damage and get the railhead(s) close to the new frontline.

And every blizzard turn without a German unit involved in combat or suffering attrition due to being next to a Soviet unit sounds like a small victory to me.

[Ridgeway]

One of the issues seems to me to be that the SU may be able to mount more powerful attacks (in terms of coordinating large numbers of units) than they could historically in Winter 1941. I am wondering if a good "house rule" would be to limit attacks prior to, say, Spring/Summer 1942 to a given number of units at a time (1 div? or maybe 2 or 3 divs as long as they start in the same hex). Basically this would require the SU to attack piecemeal, which might be a good way to simulate the inefficient tactics and command structure that they labored under early in the war. Maybe there could be a low number of multi-hex attacks allowed per turn (particularly amongst the Shock Armies) if this were too hindering to the SU.

I have not playtested this, but I am interested if others think this might address some of the Blizzard/Winter issues in a historical manner.

Lemme know your thoughts.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I do not know a good way to simulate the command problems the Soviets faced. Some units, ably led and motivated in the first winter attacked with great elan, others were piecemeal and ineffective.  Support from nearby commands could happen, or could not, it depended.
 
House rules to nerf the Soviets seem problematic to me. Just because this is the biggest issue I have, I am not sure exactly how to approach this in a non-gamey way.  As I said early on, I just need more experience (I, at least, understand this for myself - I make no claims for others) with the game to be able to fairly judge such things.
 
The best I can do now is figure out how to play the side I choose - for now that is the Axis - better.