How to correct the over effective low level bombing

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Spooky
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B-25 & B-26 data

Post by Spooky »

I don't think that the B-17 is the major problem. There are not very numerous and very supplies-hungry (see Dgaad's post about it).

However, I really have the feeling that the US medium bombers (especially B-25 & B-26) are really some kind of uber-weapons when used at 1.000' against convoys TF but also against CV TF.

What I don't know is whether the B-25 & B-26 were used in real life PTO with such low altitude levels. If not, why ? And if so, was it successful ?

Thanks

Spooky

PS : this thread is not about CAP, another thread could be opened about it but IMO, CAP works as it is intended with of course some randomness which can be very frustrating ... as it was in WWII :)
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brisd
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a gamebreaker

Post by brisd »

I guess in my old age, my frustration threshold is lower. The UV cdrom is back in its pretty case and out of my pc since the first day it arrived back in May. I am following the comments with interest, a few of my own:

1. Any documented hits by B17's at ANY altitude against any manuvering FAST warships in TF with CAP?

2. No problems overall with other tactical bombers though I think some of the Allied LBA accuracy/performance is unrealistic (A-24 / Hudson's).

3. The flak analysis going on by another player is quite revealing.

4. Off topic: How does one remove an IGNORE placed by mistake in this forum format?

No longer disgusted, moving on to other games. :p
"I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer."-Note sent with Congressman Washburne from Spotsylvania, May 11, 1864, to General Halleck. - General Ulysses S. Grant
Black Cat
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Don`t tinker with the B - 17`s Matrix

Post by Black Cat »

offically, and by that I mean in a Patch that incorporates other , more important, fixes and enhancements that we cannot do without the code.... I mean this issue can be "adjusted" in the editor on an individual basis, can it not ?

Unless I`m missing something ( other then sleep having done an all-nighter with the Campaign Game ) the Super Duper Low Level Level Bomber Ship Killer Mk I is for Play Balance VS the AI, of course in the Real War LB`s couldn`t, and never actually did what they do in the Game.

Gary & The Matrix Crew are not Dopes, they want to provide a good Gaming Experience for both sides, and super low level B-17 ship killers are the way they chose to go for the U.S. side.

No offense... but I also must say that those who view this issue as unfair/unrealistic for the Japanese player don`t seem bothered by the fact that in the May 42 - Dec-43 Campaign Games Midway never happens :eek: and they can get six big Carriers with those magnificent Naval Aviaitors that can charge around the South Pac. while keeping the fight at distance with
their longer range AC`s.....

Not to come on too strong here, but I remember way back to Pac War Ver. 2.0 when it was felt by the vocal U.S. players that the Jap Long Lance Torp was " toooooo deadleeyyyyy":rolleyes: so that got "toned down" in an offical patch... and guess what ? Yes; you got it !! , it so unbalaced the _ full Campaign Game _ the Japanese player ( vs the A.I or HtoH or Email ) was screwed, but it took months of real time playing to find that out.....and re-fix it, remember that Gary...;)

Sorry for the Rant...please indulge a Newbie..;)
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Re: B-25 & B-26 data

Post by panda124c »

Originally posted by Spooky
I don't think that the B-17 is the major problem. There are not very numerous and very supplies-hungry (see Dgaad's post about it).

However, I really have the feeling that the US medium bombers (especially B-25 & B-26) are really some kind of uber-weapons when used at 1.000' against convoys TF but also against CV TF.

What I don't know is whether the B-25 & B-26 were used in real life PTO with such low altitude levels. If not, why ? And if so, was it successful ?

Thanks

Spooky

PS : this thread is not about CAP, another thread could be opened about it but IMO, CAP works as it is intended with of course some randomness which can be very frustrating ... as it was in WWII :)
Battle of the Bismark Sea,

Yes the A-20, B-25 were used at mast height, skip bombing was very effective the speed at which the bomb was delivered was much higher than the speed use to deliver a torpedo, shorter run in to target (time). The run in was at deck level with guns blazing to suppress flak single bombs were dropped thus multiple attacks could be made( B-25's up to 14 - .50 cal. MGs firing forward, 8 in the nose, 4 side mounted in gun packs and 2 in the top turrent, earlier model only 8 to 12 guns, A-20's 8-12 guns). I love buzz saws. The original 'Puff'. :D

One of the most famous picture of an A-20 attack in Rabual harbor shows an A-20 being hit, rolls right and digs a wing into the water as his partner pulls up to clear the ship being attacked.

Low level attacks against airfields where you had to look up to see the aircraft you were attacking dropping 'parafrags' (fragmentation bombs on parachutes) to slow the bombs down so the explosion would not hit the dropping aircraft.

The tactic eventually developed was to have eight B-25's wing tip to wing tip make one pass at a target with all guns blazing. Or two rows of four A/C each for 'small' targets.

The B-26's were used more as level bombers against Rabaul, empty with the nose down on the way home they were as fast as a Zero so the fighter only got one pass (if they were between the bombers and home) then a long stern chase. Eventually they were replaced with B-25's because of load and range factors.
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Re: Don`t tinker with the B - 17`s Matrix

Post by panda124c »

Personally I think the whole problem boils down to the classification of Level Bomber.

There should be be two different classes of Level Bomber, call them Medium Bombers and High Altitude Bombers.

This would allow the characteristics of the large Heavy Bomber (B-17 and B-24) to be different from the Medium Bomber(A-20, B-26, B-25, Hudson (?)).

The two classes were used in totaly different ways and should not be lumped into the same class. This would also allow the tweeking of the logistics to launch a Heavy Bomber raid which is greater than a Medium Bomber raid.

There has been some questions about the Hudson being a Level Bomber they were used more in the recon role much like the PBYs. This is much like classing the PBY as a torpedo bomber.:p
zed
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battle of Bismark Sea

Post by zed »

It behooves every one to carefully read about the first time
low level attack was used en masse - march 4 1943 - Battle of Bismark Sea. I looked it up in "FIRE IN THE SKY" but unfortunately he does not give numbers. It is also unclear to me whether this tactic was used against surface combat groups.
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Re: battle of Bismark Sea

Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by zed
It behooves every one to carefully read about the first time
low level attack was used en masse - march 4 1943 - Battle of Bismark Sea. I looked it up in "FIRE IN THE SKY" but unfortunately he does not give numbers. It is also unclear to me whether this tactic was used against surface combat groups.
Does FITS talk about the low level attacks that were used by B-17s in October 1942?
Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)
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Post by dgaad »

People LISTEN UP :

If you are looking for historical examples of B-17s being used against carrier TFs for low level raids, YOU WON'T FIND THEM BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAPPENED. This is NOT a sound basis for concluding the game should prevent them. It was theoretically possible for this kind of raid, and we do know that B-17s were used in low level raids against transport TFs at least several times. Air Corps doctrine thenceforward required only MEDIUM bombers to be used thereafter (Mitchells, Havocs, Marauders).

Whether or not heavy or medium bombers can be used in low level attacks versus naval TFs is a matter for the player to decide. If you are willing to risk loss to B-17s in these types of attacks, that's up to you. I personally don't use B-17s this way unless I have NO medium bombers available, because I know the 17s only get 7 replacement crews and machines per MONTH. My own use parallels the historical doctrine quite nicely, and I arrived at this use for many of the same reasons that obtained historically : 17s are not as effective as Mediums in that role, 17s are too expensive, I have plenty of Mediums available, 17s are really effective airbase suppressors at high altitude so why waste them on something another craft can do much better.

Your results against your opponents may vary. Other american commanders may choose a different doctrine. That's up to them. But nothing suggests that new rules or tweaks be introduced to lop off these options at the neck. If you are advocating this, it sounds like sour grapes to me.

I should state for the record I have played Japanese in a scenario 17 and had a carrier group attacked by B-17s in much the same manner some people are complaining about. IIRC the American player said, after the turn processed, "Well, I won't be doing that again for some time". He lost more than half of his 17s to either AA or CAP, which reduced his effective numbers of 17s to about 10 in the entire theater. He gets NO replacements for 17s till October (that's 4 months from now).
Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)
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Re: battle of Bismark Sea

Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by zed
It behooves every one to carefully read about the first time
low level attack was used en masse - march 4 1943 - Battle of Bismark Sea. I looked it up in "FIRE IN THE SKY" but unfortunately he does not give numbers. It is also unclear to me whether this tactic was used against surface combat groups.
By the way, Zed, any relation to the Zed of Pulp Fiction?

Just kidding.

You would be doing Humanity a great service if you could post to this forum a scantype in a passage from FITS about a successful medium bomber attack on a Japanese transport group.
Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)
strollen
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Re: a gamebreaker

Post by strollen »

Originally posted by brisd
I guess in my old age, my frustration threshold is lower. The UV cdrom is back in its pretty case and out of my pc since the first day it arrived back in May. I am following the comments with interest, a few of my own:

1. Any documented hits by B17's at ANY altitude against any manuvering FAST warships in TF with CAP?

2. No problems overall with other tactical bombers though I think some of the Allied LBA accuracy/performance is unrealistic (A-24 / Hudson's).


No longer disgusted, moving on to other games. :p
Yes, in the battle of Bismark sea. 28 B17 attacking at altitudes from 3-5,000 feet scored 2 hits against Destroyers, along with 2 hit against transports, and 2 other B17 scored a total of 5 1,000 lb hits against a transport sinking it. The entire 1st phase of the battle took place with Japanese Zero's and Oscar providing CAP from Rabual and Gasamata. The B17 lost one to Flak, a couple were damaged by Zero, and most of the rest suffered Flak damage. The Japanese were alerted to the raid and the destroyer reached near flank speed . I believe destroyers count as fast warships :)
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Re: Re: a gamebreaker

Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by strollen


Yes, in the battle of Bismark sea. 28 B17 attacking at altitudes from 3-5,000 feet scored 2 hits against Destroyers, along with 2 hit against transports, and 2 other B17 scored a total of 5 1,000 lb hits against a transport sinking it. The entire 1st phase of the battle took place with Japanese Zero's and Oscar providing CAP from Rabual and Gasamata. The B17 lost one to Flak, a couple were damaged by Zero, and most of the rest suffered Flak damage. The Japanese were alerted to the raid and the destroyer reached near flank speed . I believe destroyers count as fast warships :)
Ahem. Anyone "disgusted" with this game hasn't read enough real history. My apologies if this statement offends anyone. I don't like the mine warfare situation, but I accept what was done as a compromise that doesn't seriously affect the realism of the game.

If you have a problem with the way the game works, you should research whether or not your "issue" is not really some misunderstanding of the history of the war before you gripe.
Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)
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Post by Nikademus »

In my mind its about pros and cons. Hindsight does help to muddle things up when it comes to wargaming but even so it still comes down to the pros and cons.

Alot of flak (pardon the pun) has been thrown around regarding the woulda-shoulda in terms of what the air corps did historically. One should also look at the "why" as well. It wasn't all a matter of men slapping their forheads and saying "we are so dumb....we should have been attacking low from the getgo, or "we should have sent all our subs to Empire waters instead of putzing around the Solomons"

Air attacks should, in the end, be a matter of pros and cons. If you attack low......then you reap some benefits (better accuracy, "straffing", "skip bombing" etc etc)


On the con side...you face more flak in general and in many cases it may also be more accurate as well, especially in the case of light AA. Disruption, fatique and potential losses will tend to be greater (unless one is attacking weak surface forces and/or merchant assets)

If you attack high then the pros are less negative effects from flak (especially disruption) but at a cost in accuracy.

To me its not so much about what the men did historically because in the end, those who've read up on things will tend to avoid those tactics that proved unprofitable and go straight to those that did. Such "gaming" is all but unavoidable unless the wargame in question puts in rules and restrictions that prevent it.

Its a thorny path however, and one that UV appears to skirt when it comes to airpower when, only a short couple of months after its release you have everyone and their kid sister putting every or most every air asset on low or ultra low level attacks in the hopes of maximizing their efficiency.

From the majority of the AAR's i've read there appears to be little negative impact from doing so hence no "con" component to balance player's decisions in this regard.

Due to the poll's "general" theme question i had to choose the option that said leave the flak alone because i believe the problem resides not in the flak, but in other areas, though at the same time, i do also believe that perhaps flak should be included into potential changes to force players to think more about what they are doing. The simple fact of the matter is that this "solution" (low level bombing) is far too far-encompasing a tactic with little in the way of trade offs for it to be left the way it is.

In order of difficulty (to the coders) i would suggest that the following be looked at.

1) routines for determining disruption/fatique for air groups engaging at low levels. If you want to hug your enemy close, thats fine, but be prepared to pay a price at times if you hug the wrong enemy......hugging a hornets nest is a far different experience from hugging an oak tree.

2) Altitude should be a major component of bomber accuracy. I'm not sure if it plays a factor the way things are right now. The manual says altitude generally doesn't which would explain why B-17's are able to consistantly smash airfields at 33,000 feet. Flak in Europe drove the bombers up because of losses and damage/disruption to planes and crew. Going up eased the problem but at a cost in accuracy. There appears to be little indication of this here. I find it hard to accept that even Nordon equipped heavy bombers can consistantly do such a large scale of damage comprable to that if the bombers were lower. I dont care how good the system, its the same for battleship fire controls, no matter how sophisticated......a steady slow target will always preportionally be a better fire solution than one weaving and traveling fast. Same for aircraft bombing.....lower altitude equates increased accuracy Higher....lower

3) 'specalty' attacks such as skip bombing/ultra low level bombing could warrent a skill or exp rating of its own, similar to the day/night exp for ships. A B-17 or a B-24 could be very effective and were against U-boats in the Atlantic diving in at low level and dropping depth charges. This was not a default or a given though. The crews required much training and experience to be good at this. Big difference between a smooth easy level bombing run at 10000 feet and one at 100 feet where the situation is far more hectic and fast paced.

4) in the absense of 3) perhaps the formation of special attack units that specialize in low level attacks such as skip bombing. If the airgroup in question has this rating they dont suffer any penalties for making such types of attacks. If not, one can still make the attacks (maintaining the player's detail control level in the game), but at penalty, perhaps in terms of fatique/disruption and accuracy. Operational losses might play here too though its more in connection with #1)

5) Flak densities and effectiveness should factor altitude as a major component. This is why torp bombers face two seperate phases of AA. Its not just because they have to come in slow and steady, its also because the altitude and AoA are more favorable vs trying to hit a dive bomber coming in at a 70 degree angle or a plane thousands of feet in the air (esp if you dont have radar assisted fire control)

6) CAP's

a couple suggestions here......the routines might take into account the altitudes in terms of probability to intercept.

Better if more of a headache for the players.....make altitude "matter" when setting your CAP's. Yes, this skirts the realm of 'tactical' vs 'operational' wargaming, but consider: being able to set the altitude settings of your land based units skirts this fine line as well. More importantly, the 'results' of this ability makes for a powerful tool in the hands of a competant player. Allowing the same to be done for carrier groups could make things interesting. Like to attack low do you? what if the enemy player knows this and sets his CAP's accordingly? Could get ugly. :)

7) If your hoping to pierce heavy armor, gravity bombs require a certain amount of alitutude to be able to build up the speed to force their way in. Not much of an issue here though as most level bombs are HE......thats a seperate issue that needs to be addressed but i thought i'd throw it out there as a brainstormin idea

Enough prattle from me. :)
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Post by dgaad »

All in all very good post Nikki.
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Post by Nikademus »

thanks Mr D :)
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Post by emorbius44 »

And, no, I don't agree that the solution is to tweak the Perfect Wargame so that historical play does NOT give historical results simply because the players are playing with "historical hindsight". The solution is new tactics to deal with the tactical situation presented. [/B][/QUOTE]


The present "tactical" situation is that a B-17 flying at 1,000 feet can hit a patrol boat or DD with a 500 lb bomb about 75% of the time. If this were even REMOTELY possible they WOULD HAVE DONE IT ALL DAY LONG for the entire war. Since this wasn't remotely possible (because the planes were incapable of doing it) they didn't.

Bob
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Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by emorbius44



The present "tactical" situation is that a B-17 flying at 1,000 feet can hit a patrol boat or DD with a 500 lb bomb about 75% of the time. If this were even REMOTELY possible they WOULD HAVE DONE IT ALL DAY LONG for the entire war. Since this wasn't remotely possible (because the planes were incapable of doing it) they didn't.

Bob
You've given this statistic 4 different times now in 4 different threads. How many times have you seen this percentage in your game play?

The fact is B-17s sank a number of ships in low level bombing attacks during the brief times they were used in a low level anti-ship role in the South Pacific. Medium bombers, such as the Mitchell and Marauder, sank dozens of ships in that role, including fast moving destroyers.

I'm afraid the historical evidence does not support the position that the game should be altered. Perhaps you could provide some additional evidence and/or suggestions for change. The game degrades accuracy of low level attacks for medium and heavy bombers of a certain experience level. However, the historical evidence shows that an experienced crew can hit even a moving ship via skip-bombing or low level bombing with a fairly significant degree of accuracy.
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Post by emorbius44 »

Originally posted by dgaad


You've given this statistic 4 different times now in 4 different threads. How many times have you seen this percentage in your game play?

The fact is B-17s sank a number of ships in low level bombing attacks during the brief times they were used in a low level anti-ship role in the South Pacific. Medium bombers, such as the Mitchell and Marauder, sank dozens of ships in that role, including fast moving destroyers.

I'm afraid the historical evidence does not support the position that the game should be altered. Perhaps you could provide some additional evidence and/or suggestions for change. The game degrades accuracy of low level attacks for medium and heavy bombers of a certain experience level. However, the historical evidence shows that an experienced crew can hit even a moving ship via skip-bombing or low level bombing with a fairly significant degree of accuracy.

This game is supposed to reflect operations AS THEY HAPPENED.
that is to say a number of paremeters are not player controlable and should reflect historical practice. Perhaps you can provide me with how many combat vessels were successfully attacked and repeatedly hit by B-17's prior to midway?
I read another post where B-17's blew through a carrier CAP and hit a CV with four bombs.

Bob
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Post by Raverdave »

Originally posted by emorbius44

The present "tactical" situation is that a B-17 flying at 1,000 feet can hit a patrol boat or DD with a 500 lb bomb about 75% of the time.
Bob

Well I am just not seeing this happen.....at least not with B-17's, b-25's yes, but no where near 75%...has it happened to you? And if so could you post the combat report from the game?
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Post by Raverdave »

Originally posted by Nikademus
In my mind its about pros and cons. Hindsight does help to muddle things up when it comes to wargaming but even so it still comes down to the pros and cons.

Alot of flak (pardon the pun) has been thrown around regarding the woulda-shoulda in terms of what the air corps did historically. One should also look at the "why" as well. It wasn't all a matter of men slapping their forheads and saying "we are so dumb....we should have been attacking low from the getgo, or "we should have sent all our subs to Empire waters instead of putzing around the Solomons"

Air attacks should, in the end, be a matter of pros and cons. If you attack low......then you reap some benefits (better accuracy, "straffing", "skip bombing" etc etc)


On the con side...you face more flak in general and in many cases it may also be more accurate as well, especially in the case of light AA. Disruption, fatique and potential losses will tend to be greater (unless one is attacking weak surface forces and/or merchant assets)

If you attack high then the pros are less negative effects from flak (especially disruption) but at a cost in accuracy.

To me its not so much about what the men did historically because in the end, those who've read up on things will tend to avoid those tactics that proved unprofitable and go straight to those that did. Such "gaming" is all but unavoidable unless the wargame in question puts in rules and restrictions that prevent it.

Its a thorny path however, and one that UV appears to skirt when it comes to airpower when, only a short couple of months after its release you have everyone and their kid sister putting every or most every air asset on low or ultra low level attacks in the hopes of maximizing their efficiency.

From the majority of the AAR's i've read there appears to be little negative impact from doing so hence no "con" component to balance player's decisions in this regard.

Due to the poll's "general" theme question i had to choose the option that said leave the flak alone because i believe the problem resides not in the flak, but in other areas, though at the same time, i do also believe that perhaps flak should be included into potential changes to force players to think more about what they are doing. The simple fact of the matter is that this "solution" (low level bombing) is far too far-encompasing a tactic with little in the way of trade offs for it to be left the way it is.

In order of difficulty (to the coders) i would suggest that the following be looked at.

1) routines for determining disruption/fatique for air groups engaging at low levels. If you want to hug your enemy close, thats fine, but be prepared to pay a price at times if you hug the wrong enemy......hugging a hornets nest is a far different experience from hugging an oak tree.

2) Altitude should be a major component of bomber accuracy. I'm not sure if it plays a factor the way things are right now. The manual says altitude generally doesn't which would explain why B-17's are able to consistantly smash airfields at 33,000 feet. Flak in Europe drove the bombers up because of losses and damage/disruption to planes and crew. Going up eased the problem but at a cost in accuracy. There appears to be little indication of this here. I find it hard to accept that even Nordon equipped heavy bombers can consistantly do such a large scale of damage comprable to that if the bombers were lower. I dont care how good the system, its the same for battleship fire controls, no matter how sophisticated......a steady slow target will always preportionally be a better fire solution than one weaving and traveling fast. Same for aircraft bombing.....lower altitude equates increased accuracy Higher....lower

3) 'specalty' attacks such as skip bombing/ultra low level bombing could warrent a skill or exp rating of its own, similar to the day/night exp for ships. A B-17 or a B-24 could be very effective and were against U-boats in the Atlantic diving in at low level and dropping depth charges. This was not a default or a given though. The crews required much training and experience to be good at this. Big difference between a smooth easy level bombing run at 10000 feet and one at 100 feet where the situation is far more hectic and fast paced.

4) in the absense of 3) perhaps the formation of special attack units that specialize in low level attacks such as skip bombing. If the airgroup in question has this rating they dont suffer any penalties for making such types of attacks. If not, one can still make the attacks (maintaining the player's detail control level in the game), but at penalty, perhaps in terms of fatique/disruption and accuracy. Operational losses might play here too though its more in connection with #1)

5) Flak densities and effectiveness should factor altitude as a major component. This is why torp bombers face two seperate phases of AA. Its not just because they have to come in slow and steady, its also because the altitude and AoA are more favorable vs trying to hit a dive bomber coming in at a 70 degree angle or a plane thousands of feet in the air (esp if you dont have radar assisted fire control)

6) CAP's

a couple suggestions here......the routines might take into account the altitudes in terms of probability to intercept.

Better if more of a headache for the players.....make altitude "matter" when setting your CAP's. Yes, this skirts the realm of 'tactical' vs 'operational' wargaming, but consider: being able to set the altitude settings of your land based units skirts this fine line as well. More importantly, the 'results' of this ability makes for a powerful tool in the hands of a competant player. Allowing the same to be done for carrier groups could make things interesting. Like to attack low do you? what if the enemy player knows this and sets his CAP's accordingly? Could get ugly. :)

7) If your hoping to pierce heavy armor, gravity bombs require a certain amount of alitutude to be able to build up the speed to force their way in. Not much of an issue here though as most level bombs are HE......thats a seperate issue that needs to be addressed but i thought i'd throw it out there as a brainstormin idea

Enough prattle from me. :)

Well for prattle, a lot of it makes sense, there is some good stuff writen in here. Well done!
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Sonny
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The real significance of this thread

Post by Sonny »

Is that at this point there are only 50 votes!!! Where the hell are you people??
Not that the voting is going to necessarily make anyone change their mind, but geez - is that all the interest there is in this game?:(
Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "
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