Defender of the Revolution: Q-Ball v Tarhunnas

[Q-Ball]

Turn 11

OUCH! Tarhunnas pulled a big pocket on me, bagging most of NW Front. He also rolled through Kalinin, bagging the factories and Armaments there. Nice job on his part.

I need to pull together a defense, but he is getting perilously close to Moscow for Turn 11. I have some big problems, but will persevere, via our Socialist Ardor.

North:

Check out below; he joined Pz Gp 4 and Pz Gp 3, in a massive pocket around NW Front. Something like 250,000 Comrades are trapped in there; no doubt most of them will end up betraying the motherland and ending up in a POW camp in Poland.

We did manage to re-establish what I am sure is temporary contact, but that should buy a little time. I also surrounded a Mot Div close to Moscow, but I have a big problem here.

I just finished moving all the factories in TULA, so they are safe, but Moscow has a pile of industry that will take a few turns to move.

I devoted 15K rail capacity to moving divisions up; I have been very parsimonious on using rail for units, and I think I need to re-think that. I still have 10-12 good divisions making the long march from the Urals; I think we will bring them up to Moscow.

Center:
We reinforced Moscow with 10 Divisions, and appointed Zhukov commander of the Moscow MD. It's a full blown crisis. We must save the Kremlin!

The only saving grace is next turn does not figure to be a blowout, as Tarhunnas undoubtedly used HQ BUILDUP, so that bullet is shot.

Several Rifle Divisions are digging treches around town.

Further south, the German drive on Tula stalled, and I pulled the remaining industry. No doubt he will divert from Tula now, and leave that to the infantry.

Between Tula and D-Town, there are no Panzers at all. As a result, we are slowly falling back with a thin screen of units.

SOUTH:

Check out the screenie; very strange penetration. I think we can hold Stalino for a couple turn.

Industry:

To date, not including Minsk, I have lost 13 Armaments and 14 Heavy Industry. So far nothing I can't overcome, but I need to save a good chunk of Stalino and/or Moscow. I moved all the VEHICLES from Kharkov in an effort to get ahead; as it happens, that may have been a mistake, as Kharkov isn't under threat at all. Oh well.

[gids]

Can you tell me a bit more how you arrange the cp in the soviet army.?how do you handle the overload

[Pawlock]

I would be a bit concerned with this Panzer div, is there an active unit under that Hq in the path of my arrow? If he gets to that square its bye bye most of Moscows industry.

I have been recently faced with similar decisions, so much so Ive ended up having to move just the base factories, with the excess being destroyed after the move.

[Q-Ball]

Turn 12 Shot:

Here are a couple screenshots of the Kharkov and Moscow areas. I just opened turn 13, and saw the complete disaster that has befallen. More on that, since I saw Tarhunnas posting on his AAR. Here is the turn before....

[Q-Ball]

Is the War Lost?

Obviously I am getting my butt-kicked. I probably should have played a Soviet game instead of trying to play Tarhunnas first out of the gate, though I had played parts of several games and won handily. What a difference an opponent makes.

Anyway, the question for the more experienced gallery members is: Is the war lost in 13 turns? The Red Army still stands so I think no on that count, but I have lost a mountain of industry. All the stuff in Moscow is gone, with the exception of the T-50 factory (whoopdedo). Kharkov is gone, though I had moved the T-34s and Vehicles from there. Nevertheless, here is the damage:

48 Armament Factories
26 Heavy Industry
20 Vehicles

The Manual says you can lose half your industry and still make it, so I guess we are going to test that theory.

Losing a pile of A/C factories does not bother me quite as much; everyone says the Red Air Force has piles of planes in the pool. Guess we'll test that one too.

This could snowball, because I only have 89,600 Rail Cap now, no doubt due to the loss of so many Railyards. I should get one turn of break, because Tarhunnas's Panzers are spread out, they already used HQ Buildup, and several will be cut-off, particularly in the South. So that's 2 turns of moving stuff.

I am inclined to keep going, but the question is: How bad is this damage in the long run?

[Klydon]

I think Larry has shown the way with his AAR against Pelton. Despite getting just absolutely hammered in 1941, he was in a position to continue to resist in 1942. I think most everyone was fairly sure what the outcome would be, but the point is the Russians seem to be very capable of taking the most severe battering and still be in a position to offer resistance.

Out of this mess, you can take some comfort in a couple of things. First, losses for both sides is fairly low for this time of season. That is going to change if he can nail all those pockets, so it is going to be up to you to save as much of your army as you can. What doesn't get destroyed doesn't have to be replaced in terms of armaments points. You are still in a position that even whatever he destroys now, will come back yet, even if it is a shell.

With PG1 heading north, that should mean the Stalino area is safe; for now. Don't fool yourself, those factories need to be gone by spring and there is a chance he could still get them during snow, but not likely. Either way, you need to defend them heavily. I would look to try to keep the armaments in place for now in order to help fill out units for your blizzard offensive. You are going to need a good blizzard offensive, which may be quite possible depending on how losses go and how well he sets up for winter. We have seen a number of Germans do well with their campaign only to take a terrific beating during blizzard. Case in point, if he doesn't clean up the situation north of the Crimea, there could be some possibilities there. There is a good chance that the line won't advance much past Moscow and a counter offensive may take it back.

A lot of what happens in the winter will depend on how well you organize your forces in the shock armies, get the proper leaders set up there and then come out swinging.

Hang in there. [:)]

[Pawlock]

Hard to give you a long term view based on experience cos havent got that far myself yet. In material, manpower and industrial losses I think you are better placed than me in my one game. I lost everything at Lenningrad and lost quite few bits and pieces elsewhere plus much had to be destroyed in Moscow evacuation.

Not quite lost Moscow yet and my opponent no where near Stalino yet(this may all change on his next turn).

So as it stands IMO I think you are still well placed to bounce back. Myself personally I dont feel crushed or defeated yet.

[Arstavidios]

Manpower is more of an issue than factories in the long run.
you don't have that many men. With the loss of Leningrad and moscow you've taken a big hit there.

[Flaviusx]

Q-ball, I'd be resigning tbh.

You might survive and limp along and deny the German a decisive victory, sure. But you aren't going to get to Berlin.

Runaways don't work. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Against a first class German player, they will fail every time.

You have to buy time, and sacrifice units and rail units to the front. Make the German fight.

[Klydon]

While I bow to Flaviusx's much more expert eye, I think you consider going forward at least into the summer of 1942, especially if Tarhunnas is up for it.

The huge reason why is your experience factor, especially in conducting a winter counter offensive. If you were to resign now, the next game you play as a Russian, you still face this as a "first time" situation. Tarhunnas may very well be up for it just to get some experience as a German going through a blizzard as well. I think you both would benefit from it.

Who knows what could happen during the winter. IF Tarhunnas suffers a rather catastrophic winter, then perhaps the future of the game is not written in stone at this point.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think Larry has shown the way with his AAR against Pelton. Despite getting just absolutely hammered in 1941, he was in a position to continue to resist in 1942. I think most everyone was fairly sure what the outcome would be, but the point is the Russians seem to be very capable of taking the most severe battering and still be in a position to offer resistance.

Out of this mess, you can take some comfort in a couple of things. First, losses for both sides is fairly low for this time of season. That is going to change if he can nail all those pockets, so it is going to be up to you to save as much of your army as you can. What doesn't get destroyed doesn't have to be replaced in terms of armaments points. You are still in a position that even whatever he destroys now, will come back yet, even if it is a shell.

With PG1 heading north, that should mean the Stalino area is safe; for now. Don't fool yourself, those factories need to be gone by spring and there is a chance he could still get them during snow, but not likely. Either way, you need to defend them heavily. I would look to try to keep the armaments in place for now in order to help fill out units for your blizzard offensive. You are going to need a good blizzard offensive, which may be quite possible depending on how losses go and how well he sets up for winter. We have seen a number of Germans do well with their campaign only to take a terrific beating during blizzard. Case in point, if he doesn't clean up the situation north of the Crimea, there could be some possibilities there. There is a good chance that the line won't advance much past Moscow and a counter offensive may take it back.

A lot of what happens in the winter will depend on how well you organize your forces in the shock armies, get the proper leaders set up there and then come out swinging.

Hang in there. [:)]

Re Larry I am not so sure about that. At first I was also impressed by how his Red Army reappeared at the end of 1941. Then looking deeper it was pretty obvious as it is with the same game now against KLilly, that Larry simply used all his resources and rebuilt the Red Army of 1941 rather than evolving it to the new. It has to be open to question whether that type of army can survive in 1942, or whether it simply becomes Barbarossa Redux. It didn't take long in '42 for Pelton to consume the Soviet Fronts and again KLilly is repeating the same process. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery they say. Of course in a similar situation others may take the Red Army to the next level. but perhaps it remains to be seen what size of army emerges. When Larry fleshes out the shell divisions in winter, come Spring it looks like a long, wide carpet. A Red Army with numerous corps may look a lot smaller. So I think we are still waiting to see the book written on how to survive catastrophic losses of Moscow, Leningrad, the Donbass and come out of winter with a chance to win the war.

[Pawlock]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-ball, I'd be resigning tbh.

You might survive and limp along and deny the German a decisive victory, sure. But you aren't going to get to Berlin.

Runaways don't work. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Against a first class German player, they will fail every time.

You have to buy time, and sacrifice units and rail units to the front. Make the German fight.

Flaviusx, being an alpha tester and all I respect your opinion's and advice mostly, but I think your sending out a bad message here. Unless you can decisively defeat your opponent, resign. Is'nt this why so many games are getting conceded early with no real insight to what really could happen? A lot of it is unchartered territory with no AAR's going past 43 so far. (yes no doubt theres a few testers got perhaps a handful of games in this era, but I would bet theres not enough to get a real feel as it were.

Unless people ride out the bad times, how are we ever gonna know?

[Scook_99]

I have not read Tar'a AAR yet, so I would fight it out and see what happens in 1942. You have 5 turns to survive, so I would throw everything in his face possible, and make my goal for the Winter offensive taking back Moscow. Be interesting to see if you can build up an army to withstand the '42 offensive.

Edit: The biggest reason I would play on is to see what happens. I don't know how bing your army will get by April 1942. If you take this light of losses and can't get to a sizable army that would be good to know.

[Mynok]

I think Flavius is just giving an honest answer to the question based on his experience. Not going to discount that at all, but I do think it would be interesting to see what happens now just for learning purposes, both for Qball and for those of us watching. It would be good data for game testing IMO.

[Peltonx]

Flavius is always claiming that GHC player quit and here he is claiming you should quit. I have had most SHC players quit during the blizzard, once they see that the winter O is doing little they pack it up.

Flavius might be right, but I don't beleive at this pt any one knows for 100%

I thk most poeple should stick it out until the winter of 42/43 at least. Most poeple just really don't know what to expect in the late yrs at this point.

How many AAR's even go into 43?


Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Pelton is always telling us that the Soviet railways are overpowered, buildups are ruined with the latest patch, and the Germans haven't got a chance. Yet here we are.

[Peltonx]

Me and you will have to do a death match at some point. You seem to run your mouth like a drunk at times, forgetting poeple can read. Pride is a really bad thing.

One day we will meet on the field of battle.

Until then stop making yourself look like ass to the general WiTe public. I just don't see how that makes you seem uber crapping on poeple. Have a little respect for other poeple.

I try to debate whats wrong with the rules and not crap on poeple like you do.

As always Gary has the last word its his game, not yours [:-]

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Bring it on.

[Ketza]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Bring it on.

A game for the ages that would be!

[Sabre21]

Now that is a match I would like to see...but let's do keep it friendly. No name calling or anything of the like. You will have to be on the same sheet of music though. Same game release. No experimental rule sets (like what we are testing now).