Accelerating Japanese air frames

[jhowell]

Sure, they're hard to repair if you're aiming for something 1½ years out, but they repair quick if the goal is only a couple of months away. So there is an incentive to keep adding research factories towards the end of the research cycle so that they repair and can be used on the next project - which might have a historical arrival date far in the future.

This thread has helped me understand the Japanese R&D a lot better. Now I just wish I understood why the aircraft R&D starts disabled while the engine R&D factories start the game fully repaired.

[Numdydar]

I too would LOVE someone to answer that one lol.
 
I will point out that the Hellen 1a's (availability 4/42) and the Toka (availability 12/45) start out fully repaired. Why them versus all the rest is yet another mystery to be solved [:D]
 
This is why I suggested in my OP that the editor should be used in any GC (whether against the AI or a player) to change all the R&D factories to be fully repaired from the start of the game.
 
Even if a factory is producing 5/month (and most are not) it will still take 20 months to get a one month advance. I'm sure this will stop the Allies in their tracks not. [:)]

[SuluSea]

I made an image of the starting Air R & D facilities . I counted 77 of them but ran out of fingers and toes so... It's actually many more than I thought when I see it laid out like that instead of viewing in game. Thanks Damian for you answers you provided to my R & D questions as you really helped clear the fog and this thread does as well.
I love this tip as it will help streamline-

Viberpool said

"A clever player should focus on frames with several upgrades in line, repair as much as possible before their availability, and then, before arrival switch free to the next available, better version, accelerating its arrival. "

Here's an image if anyone wants to copy it for scratch note purposes. I have good eyes and am able to write small if anyone needs me to break it up in two or three sections just ask. [:)]

[jhowell]

Look at all those little factories... The thing I take away from this thread is that there is little point in trying to accelerate planes that are years out (e.g. Ki-201 Karyu aka the Japanese ME626). Although counter intuative because you would think that the highest gains would be made on something that is still years away - this is the way that ship acceleration works for example - it is in fact a waste of time and a waste if an R&D factory slot.

Choose something with several upgrades in a line and devote a stack load of R&D factories to it. Carefully build up and repair the factories. Repairing gets easier as you get closer to the historical due date. Don't go over a factory size of 30 at each location. It is going to take a long time and you won't make huge gains because your R&D locations will spend most of their time with at least 1 disabled factory. Then just before the first plane of the chain is 'invented' make sure everything is fully repaired and then WHAM switch all of them over to the 2nd in line. Now you can make huge gains because everything is fully repaired and ready to go and there is a long lead time to cut down.

Mwhu ha ha ha. I am really looking forward to using this. Shame I can't use it to get jets early though.

Hey SuluSea, do you know that you can export tracker information to csv files and load them into excel. This saves a lot of typing. [;)]

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: KiwVik

Hey SuluSea, do you know that you can export tracker information to csv files and load them into excel. This saves a lot of typing. [;)]

I tried to export a CSV file yesterday and couldn't figure out how to just get the airframe research facilities. So I started up my photo program and took pictures of my screen cropped & stitched them together and change colors- total time maybe 5 minutes. [:)]

Thanks!

[Numdydar]

Yes and notice ALL start damaged too lol (execpt the two I mentioned earlier, Helen 1a's and the Toka).

[Numdydar]

Bump due to update

[d0mbo]

May I add a fair warning to consult with your PBEM opponent first how he thinks about advanced Japanese planes arriving much earlier ? This to prevent a Japanese player from investing many a turn in R&D only to find out his opponent might not be pleased and not accept the fact that Franks are rolling off your Tokyo assemblyline in late '42. (Exxagarted example, but you get my drift).

I think 1-3 months should be no problem, but more can give you an unfair advantage over the allies, who do not have the option to accelerate anything.

This message states ´in reply to´ but it´s meant as a general remark

[Numdydar]

Really [&:] Japan can have an unfair advantage over the Allies? Wow! I had no idea that was even possible lol.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The above also mirroes my experience.

I mistakenly tried to advance the 2nd version of a airframe (skipping the first version) while on another one I did the opposite (concentrated on the first version). Tryng to accelerate the first version worked much better following the same logic as viberpol's. Of course I had already done the deed so to speak on accelerating the 2nd version and did not want to go through the slow process of repair again.

So when an airframe is within a month I switch it's R&D factories to the next version (unless I really want all those factories to actually build planes).

It is VERY important to do this at the one month mark PRIOR to the plane's current availability. So if a plane that is accelerating is available on 2/43 and it is now 1/43, make the decision to keep the factories as R&D or to allow them to become production ones. If you wait, the plane may accelerate in the middile of the month and all those R&D factories IMMEDIATELY switch to production and can no longer be used for R&D.

Obviously I know this because it happened to me lol.  

Yup, some caution is needed... [:D]
But I also tried more hardcore version.

If it's 1/43 and the airplane will be available at 2/43 and given the fact that only fully repaired factories produce research points -- you can actually quite safely expand the factory by 28-29 points and change the researched airplane type one day before its arrival. If the availability date is close, the damaged points are repaired quite fast -- even 1 per day. Of course you need to closely monitor the repaired factories.

I actually tested your theory [:)] Sorry to say it did not quite work out the way you suggested [:(]

I had a new plane type becoming available in Aug (i.e. reseach would be completed on 8/1). On July 17, I took two R&D factories and switched them over to the airframe whose research would be completed on 8/1 to test your hypothsis. So only 14 turns left for the R&D fctories to perform research (7/18-7/31). Both the factories were expanded to be 0(12) on 7/17. Here are the results:

Turn Fac1 Fac2 Totals
7/18 0(12) 0(12) 0
7/19 1(11) 0(12) 1
7/20 2(10) 0(12) 2
7/21 2(10) 0(12) 2
7/22 2(10) 1(12) 3
7/23 2(10) 2(10) 4
7/24 2(10) 2(10) 4
7/25 2(10) 2(10) 4
7/26 3(09) 2(10) 5
7/27 4(08) 2(10) 6
7/28 4(08) 2(10) 6
7/29 4(08) 2(10) 6
7/30 4(08) 2(10) 6
7/31 5(07) 2(10) 7

So even if the availability date is very close, the R&D factories still repair differently than normal production ones. There must be a different repair routine involved.

What is suprising is that these factories were in two different cities both with adaquate supplies (both over 20K) yet one repaired at a significently better rate than the other. Factory 1 repaired 5 out of 12 versus 2 out of 12 for Factory 2, a 250% difference between them (5 divided by 2). So maybe the actual location of WHERE the R&D factory is located plays a part in the repair chance. Of course this is just a theory as with only a 14 day pronbability chance pool does not give enough data points to prove or disprove this. But interesting none the less.

Regardless, it appears that there is some form of a cap on the repair rate for R&D factories that prevents them from ever reaching the 1/day rate that production factories enjoy.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you have PDU off then acceleration really does not have a great impact as with it On as you will not be able to use the accelerated planes execpt in those squardons that upgraded to them historically. So acceleration only really comes into it's on when PDU is on. Of course it will be On for both sides, so choise wisely [:D].

Against a human Allied player, I would suggest to make the game more 'even' (not that it really can be lol) would be to play with PDU Off. While you will be able to produce better aircraft faster with PDU On, the Allies can create some very good squadrons with better planes too. I've played it both ways and both have their advantages and disadvantages so it is really up to the player(s) involved. 

No, not really. The Allied player is always limited in production. So it matters little if I can create 20 squadrons of P47s when I can only produce 55 per month. Unlike the Japanese players who can focus on one or two good fighters types and fill out his squadrons out with PDU on, the Allied player is much more limited and has to build and use his crappy stuff until the historical end date. In 12/43 I am still producing boomerangs, P39s, warhawks, FM wildcats and so on. I only wish I could change over production to better planes. PDU and control of production absolutely benefits the Japanese player. Not saying it is a bad thing but the benefit to the Allied player is limited.

[Numdydar]

As far as quanity of plane types go you are correct.

The issue I have with PDU On against a human player is that the Allies can take the few squadrons of the good planes that exist, like the B24s, P38s etc. and build very highly effective groups by allocating their very best pilots in them (say 70-80+ range). So even though you get a fixed amount as the Allies, you can make every one of the better plane types be far more effective that it would appear.

I am in early 43 and for the last 3-4 months I have had 60-70 B24s and 30-40 P38s wrecking havoc. This is because with PDU On everyone of these planes are flying versus having to wait for a squadron to become available that can be upgraded to these types.

So if the Allies are getting 20 P38s a month all 20 can be put in action every month with PDU On. With PDU Off, using these would be dependent on the proper squadron being available to accept them, so the Allies may have to wait several months to used these planes. This to me is why PDU should be Off when not playing against the AI. Maybe even against the AI too lol. It would depend on how effective the AI would use the ability to change airframes at will.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

As far as quanity of plane types go you are correct.

The issue I have with PDU On against a human player is that the Allies can take the few squadrons of the good planes that exist, like the B24s, P38s etc. and build very highly effective groups by allocating their very best pilots in them (say 70-80+ range). So even though you get a fixed amount as the Allies, you can make every one of the better plane types be far more effective that it would appear.

I am in early 43 and for the last 3-4 months I have had 60-70 B24s and 30-40 P38s wrecking havoc. This is because with PDU On everyone of these planes are flying versus having to wait for a squadron to become available that can be upgraded to these types.

So if the Allies are getting 20 P38s a month all 20 can be put in action every month with PDU On. With PDU Off, using these would be dependent on the proper squadron being available to accept them, so the Allies may have to wait several months to used these planes. This to me is why PDU should be Off when not playing against the AI. Maybe even against the AI too lol. It would depend on how effective the AI would use the ability to change airframes at will.

Have you actually bothered to check whether with PDU OFF, there is no such squadron available to accept the new P-38 airframes.

Alfred

[pompack]

While the algorithm below has not been explicetly stated so far, it is implied by a number of the posts above. I am just summarizing and simplifying it

1. select a far downstream airframe you want to accellerate, e.g. the Tony Ki100-1
2. trace that airframe back down the factory upgrade path to the next available airframe not yet in production, e.g. the Ki 61-1-d Tony
3. decide what your "sweetspot" is, e.g. 4x30 factories
4. reassign R&D factories until you have the desired number of factories
5. increase each factory until it is at the desired target level
6. run turns until each factory reaches the target level; as each fills out shift it following the factory upgrade path to the final target airframe

Rationale: R&D repair rate is a function of target date where the earlier date repairs faster. Factories shifted along the factory repair path are not reset to damaged.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

As far as quanity of plane types go you are correct.

The issue I have with PDU On against a human player is that the Allies can take the few squadrons of the good planes that exist, like the B24s, P38s etc. and build very highly effective groups by allocating their very best pilots in them (say 70-80+ range). So even though you get a fixed amount as the Allies, you can make every one of the better plane types be far more effective that it would appear.

I am in early 43 and for the last 3-4 months I have had 60-70 B24s and 30-40 P38s wrecking havoc. This is because with PDU On everyone of these planes are flying versus having to wait for a squadron to become available that can be upgraded to these types.

So if the Allies are getting 20 P38s a month all 20 can be put in action every month with PDU On. With PDU Off, using these would be dependent on the proper squadron being available to accept them, so the Allies may have to wait several months to used these planes. This to me is why PDU should be Off when not playing against the AI. Maybe even against the AI too lol. It would depend on how effective the AI would use the ability to change airframes at will.

Have you actually bothered to check whether with PDU OFF, there is no such squadron available to accept the new P-38 airframes.

Alfred

To rephase to make sure I understand your point, is this. Is it possible that with PDU Off, there may be situations where there will be no squadrons available at all (i.e. never) that will accept a particular airframe? So that if a player gets quanties of Plane Type A, they will never be able to use them due to no squadron ever available to accept them with PDU Off.

If my understanding of your question is correct, the answer is no. For any airframe there will be at least one or more squadrons that can upgrade to it. You may only have one that can upgrade, lol, but you will have at least one. For many squadrons you have a choice of upgrdes that the squadron can chose from.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: pompack

While the algorithm below has not been explicetly stated so far, it is implied by a number of the posts above. I am just summarizing and simplifying it

1. select a far downstream airframe you want to accellerate, e.g. the Tony Ki100-1
2. trace that airframe back down the factory upgrade path to the next available airframe not yet in production, e.g. the Ki 61-1-d Tony
3. decide what your "sweetspot" is, e.g. 4x30 factories
4. reassign R&D factories until you have the desired number of factories
5. increase each factory until it is at the desired target level
6. run turns until each factory reaches the target level; as each fills out shift it following the factory upgrade path to the final target airframe

Rationale: R&D repair rate is a function of target date where the earlier date repairs faster. Factories shifted along the factory repair path are not reset to damaged.

Very nice summary. I would like to add one small change at step 6

6. Once the factories are fully repaired, wait until one month before the airframe you are researching becomes availabble.
7. Now switch to the next plane in the R&D sequence, IF and only IF you have the time to accelerate by two months or more. Otherwise skip to the next airframe in the squence.

The changes above will allow you to get better airframes faster rather than having to wait all the way to the last one in squence. This way you could get the A6M5 Zero faster, along with the 5b and 5c, etc. versions. Instead of just going for the last step A6M8 all at once.

While it may be possible to 'skip' a stage by going for the one at the end, I am not sure how pratical it would be. Also, one danger would be that you would have to make damn sure that whatever engine they used would be available too. It would not do to have an airframe accelerated by a year and have to wait six months for the engines to show up, lol.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Regardless, it appears that there is some form of a cap on the repair rate for R&D factories that prevents them from ever reaching the 1/day rate that production factories enjoy.

I think the formula for R&D repair was posted somewhere in old WITP forum, so it can be outdated, or there was none, who actually tested it.

However, your results ARE surprising.

[Numdydar]

That's why I wanted to use two factories in the test in order to see if there were any other varables that were not normally apparent. So there is some unknown major variations in the R&D repair that are not present in the production ones. Having one repair twice as fast as the other with all variables the same execpt city location, makes me wonder what the test would show if both factories were located in Tokyo.
 
The two cities I used for the test were Kobe and Ulksonomiya. Both connected by rail, on the Japanese home Is., etc. Yet Kobe repaired to 5 while Ulk only got to 2. I guess the scientists in Kobe are better than the ones at Ulk [:D] 

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: pompack

While the algorithm below has not been explicetly stated so far, it is implied by a number of the posts above. I am just summarizing and simplifying it

1. select a far downstream airframe you want to accellerate, e.g. the Tony Ki100-1
2. trace that airframe back down the factory upgrade path to the next available airframe not yet in production, e.g. the Ki 61-1-d Tony
3. decide what your "sweetspot" is, e.g. 4x30 factories
4. reassign R&D factories until you have the desired number of factories
5. increase each factory until it is at the desired target level
6. run turns until each factory reaches the target level; as each fills out shift it following the factory upgrade path to the final target airframe

Rationale: R&D repair rate is a function of target date where the earlier date repairs faster. Factories shifted along the factory repair path are not reset to damaged.

Very nice summary. I would like to add one small change at step 6

6. Once the factories are fully repaired, wait until one month before the airframe you are researching becomes availabble.
7. Now switch to the next plane in the R&D sequence, IF and only IF you have the time to accelerate by two months or more. Otherwise skip to the next airframe in the squence.

The changes above will allow you to get better airframes faster rather than having to wait all the way to the last one in squence. This way you could get the A6M5 Zero faster, along with the 5b and 5c, etc. versions. Instead of just going for the last step A6M8 all at once.

While it may be possible to 'skip' a stage by going for the one at the end, I am not sure how pratical it would be. Also, one danger would be that you would have to make damn sure that whatever engine they used would be available too. It would not do to have an airframe accelerated by a year and have to wait six months for the engines to show up, lol.

Hi all -

Just reviewing this again, and I think there are times that it would be better to try and skip ahead because once the R&D factory is repaired, the two months (or whatever) that you spend accelerating that next frame could be two more months that the farther out frame is accelerated. I think it will be important to evaluate where your game is versus what frames you want when. There are times when things get into a lull for a couple months and it might be better to plan ahead and say (assume X is the farther out frame, and Y is the next in line), "I'd rather have X frame in March 1943 rather than getting Y 2 months early and getting X in May/June 1943 because I expect that I will be fighting more in March 1943 than I am in July 1942."

I hope that makes sense - my point is just that once the R&D factory is repaired, if you leave it working on a near term frame you are giving up advancement time on the down the road frame - it isn't like the R&D points are produced any faster for a closer frame - only that damaged R&D is repair faster.

This is a great thread BTW - thanks for starting it Numdydar.

[Numdydar]

Thanks for the kind words.
 
As I was very confused myself about how all of this worked and could not find a single thread that had all the pieces about Japanese R&D, I thought I would help out others that might have wanted to play the 'dark side [:)]' but were overwhelmed by how Japanese production worked. Especially airframes. I'm glad you found it useful.