War in the West

[gradenko2k]

Wow, heliodorus just took the "humorous observations from WITE that might apply to WITW" game to a whole new level. I just kidding with the whole air-war thing, I swear!

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.

One thing I am looking forward to is how American / British operational doctrine will be represented, insofar as the Russians have their own 2:1 and higher-losses special rules for them.

AFAIK (and I'm sure herwin can correct me on this), the Western Allies had artillery going for them: Lots of it, and under the direct control of the guys actually at the front line.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Wow, heliodorus just took the "humorous observations from WITE that might apply to WITW" game to a whole new level. I just kidding with the whole air-war thing, I swear!

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.

One thing I am looking forward to is how American / British operational doctrine will be represented, insofar as the Russians have their own 2:1 and higher-losses special rules for them.

AFAIK (and I'm sure herwin can correct me on this), the Western Allies had artillery going for them: Lots of it, and under the direct control of the guys actually at the front line.

It wasn't the artillery so much as it was the number of rounds they had for it.
America invented the term "Recon by fire"

[kirkgregerson]

I think the vast discrepancy in the air was also something the plagued the Germans in so much as planning much of any large offensives. Only the weather being poor could save the Germans from ceaseless air attacks by roaming allied fighter-bombers.

The proximity fuse introduced by the US also was something that made their artillery much more effective.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Just as Germany is bound to its winter 1941 demise, France will be bound to its no-reserves charge into Belgium.

If WitE did not have a first winter rule, I would not buy it. And the Germans are not doomed by it. On the contrary, without it there would be no chance of the Russians winning. I am sure that "Pre-War" settups will be frozen, but that is just starting locations.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
But wait, maybe I'm wrong and France will be given complete freedom of command and control exactly as the Soviets are in 1941. In that case, Germany players can re-create the stalemate of Verdun as France players erect a perfect grid of brigades forward soaking up German MPs and combined stacks of French armor and infantry creating Schwerpunkts.

The entire Axis and Allied side will be given complete freedom of CC and Production. The only reason WitE doesn't allow this for the Germans is BECAUSE THERE IS A WAR IN THE WEST GOING ON that is represented abstactly with withdrawals and surrenders now.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
What's that? There will be a Norway campaign? Well, with the British and French having to ship in and ship out divisions as their historical counterpart does, that should be a gripping campaign as you invade Narvik only to have to withdraw the troops 4 weeks later. How about a Dutch campaign where the only counter the Dutch get to move is the royal family? Maybe Denmark can hold out until 50 soldiers are killed!

Withdrawals will not be needed in a game that does not have units transfering to other parts of the world not represented on the map. Now if there are some units that go from Europe to the Pacific, they will have withdrawals.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Will a US invasion be required on June 6, 1944? Will US Supply be modeled perfectly so that every division from Caan to St. Lo has exactly enough to launch full-frontal attacks?

Plain silly - I am sure the Allied player will have full autonomy over such decisions.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Will an Allied player ever even need to launch Market Garden when you can just grind down German infantry turn after turn all across the front? What earthly point will there be for the Germans to do anything other than enact major forts along every major river from the Somme to the Elbe?

Here I tend to agree with you. One of my criticizms of the current game is there is no incentive to play "honest". The Russians need more reason to hold the line where they can. The Germans pre-knowledge of the coming effects of the first winter is strange.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

Lol. You should go into politics. Seriously, making these games are obviously a passion for Gary and his crew. I am sure there are ways they might have done better, but they certainly have done well.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.

Exploitable? I think there are a couple of things (addressed already) that need some tweaking. But you are taking one of the finest operations level wargames ever made, in its infancy, and throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Redmarkus5]

He's right about the quoting Glantz thing though. There are some who attempt to silence any wayward comments with exactly that technique...

[Redmarkus5]

Having said that, I see WW2 as an example of chaos theory in action. It is hard to assess the effect on the eastern front of 20 extra Axis divisions becoming available because the UK has been invaded and US entry into Europe is unlikely. Or the effects of the capture of the ME oil fields.

As long as the final product (Europa) allows us to explore those possibilities, while also delivering a convincing representation of operational level warfare (still a long way to go there) I will be very happy.

[CarnageINC]

I believe I have read somewhere from Joel or Helpless....sorry if I'm wrong here....stated that WitE and WitW were going to be integrated someday.  When this happens I believe it will make the WitW more feasble as a grand strategy game.  Allowing players to decide when and where divisions will go will add a whole new dimension to the series.  Second and third fronts will really get some action going and make for some hard decisions for players.  As far as WitW as a stand alone game....I'm on the fence.  Wait and see is the only course here IMO.

[Q-Ball]

I think WITP-AE, WITE, and WITW should all be combined in one massive, mind-bending engine.

[heliodorus04]

Listen, and by this I mean NO offense to Matrix:
I'm sure if WitW and WitE are ever integrated (let alone WitP), I'm sure that would be a 3rd generation product (1st being War in Russia back in the day) that we'd get to pay for (and complain about [;)]) separately. 

My criticisms notwithstanding, let's not forget this may be the longest a PC game has ever kept my attention (Civ 1 being the all-time, keep a cup at your desk and pee in a bottle so you don't have to break from playing, winner).  And the possibilities for an integrated, grand strategy game are apparent to anyone who appreciates the data collection that goes into the title (data collection being differentiated in my mind from model execution, which is what I try to criticize).  I'd be keeping my eye on that title.

My dissatisfaction(s) with WitE are about potential that I think I see in that isn't being unlocked or isn't framed correctly (meaning: the way *I* think is 'funnest for me'). 

And sometimes I feel like I have to save the fun in the game from historians in the community, but that's meant as respectfully as possible.  My attitude reflects what I want from a game, not what I think of history.

[CarnageINC]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think WITP-AE, WITE, and WITW should all be combined in one massive, mind-bending engine.

WOOT! That's a massive game for sure [:D]

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

Out of curiosity, how many Grigsby games have you played? It seems to me you have a few criticisms and concerns and have filled in the gaps between them with assumptions.

Regards,

- Erik

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

Out of curiosity, how many Grigsby games have you played? It seems to me you have a few criticisms and concerns and have filled in the gaps between them with assumptions.

Regards,

- Erik

Well, I'm not too sure of whom made the games I played in the 90s, but I played War in Russia, which I'm told was GG. And if my memory from 15-20 years ago is nearabout correct, there was a west-front game based on that model as well that I played.

Otherwise, I'd have to read up on his oevre.
[;)]

[Joel Billings]

You'll have a lot of reading to do since he's designed around 30 games.

[tigercub]

Not sure what was garys first game he made but would but do know i have had just about all of them....many fell short of what i wanted from them but then again he was the leader of war game markers!
 
commodore 64 was a long time ago now.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

You'll have a lot of reading to do since he's designed around 30 games.

From the Wiki on GG:

Kampfgruppe (1985):
Might have played this, but I'd have been 16. Who can remember.

Typhoon of Steel (1988)
Overrun! (1989)
Second Front (1990)
Western Front (1991)
Played all 4 of these and remember them fondly. These were my days in the army working in M1s and M1A1s, and everything was golden then.

Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)
This is what I think was my first Eastern Front GG game. Never found a groove for me (which I at least have found in WitE, but I'm smarter now, arguably, arguably, yes I hear you)

Steel Panthers (1995)
Ah, a game that I loved more than many, many others. One of my all-time favorites. Didn't know it was GG. Observation: WitE has all of the individual fighting element detail of Steel Panthers, and none of the need.


Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)
I guess I missed quite a few titles there, but as you can see, I'm a land-war kind of guy.

[gradenko2k]

A more complete game-ography:

Gary Grigsby's World At War (2005), Matrix Games
War in the Pacific: The Struggle Against Japan 1941-1945 (2004), Matrix Games
Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific (2002), Matrix Games
Gary Grigsby's Pacific War (2000), Matrix Games
Steel Panthers: World at War (2000), Matrix Games
12 O'Clock High: Bombing the Reich (1999), Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc., TalonSoft
Battle of Britain (1999), TalonSoft
Steel Panthers III: Brigade Command (1939-1999) (1997), Mindscape, Inc., Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Steel Panthers II: Modern Battles (1996), Mindscape, Inc.
Steel Panthers (1995), Mindscape, Inc.
Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Carrier Strike (1992), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Gary Grigsby's Pacific War (1992), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
High Command: Europe 1939-45 (1992), Three-Sixty Pacific, Inc.
Western Front: The Liberation of Europe 1944-1945 (1991), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Second Front: Germany Turns East (1990), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Battle Cruiser (1987), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Panzer Strike (1987), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Battle Group (1986), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
War in the South Pacific (1986), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Kampfgruppe (1985), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Mech Brigade (1985), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
U.S.A.A.F. - United States Army Air Force (1985), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Reforger '88 (1984), Strategic Simulations, Inc.
Carrier Force (1983), Strategic Simulations, Inc.

Taken from http://www.mobygames.com/developer/shee ... rId,22444/

[Pipewrench]

wow ,memories

Carrier strike, love the speed and the graphics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh8Rqlb6hd4

Second front, played that every weekend for a year...wife was pissed!

[Joel Billings]

More complete:

A Complete List of Games Designed By Gary:

SSI
Guadalcanal Campaign, Bomb Alley, North Atlantic '86,
Carrier Force, Objective: Kursk, War in Russia (1984),
Reforger '88, Kampfgruppe, Mech Brigade,
USAAF, Battlegroup, Warship,
War in the South Pacific, Battlecruiser, Panzer Strike!
Typhoon of Steel, Overrun, Second Front,
Western Front, Carrier Strike, Pacific War,
War in Russia (1993), Steel Panthers, Steel Panthers II,
Steel Panthers III,

Talonsoft
Battle of Britain, 12 O'clock High


2by3 Games/Matrix Games
Uncommon Valor, War in the Pacific, Gary Grigsby's World at War, Gary Grigsby's A World Divided, Gary Grigsby's War Between the States, Gary Grigsby's War in the East

Uses Gary's Designs as Starting Point but completed by others:
Steel Panthers World at War, War Plan Orange, War in the Pacific AE

I count 36. I can't think any other designer/programmer that comes close. Are there any board game authors that can claim this many designs? Other than Jim Dunigan, I'm not sure there is.

[gradenko2k]

I was born too early (1987) to play most of his earlier games, but from that list, I've played:

War in Russia
Western Front
Steel Panthers World at War
Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich (Battle of Britain + 12 O'clock High compilation)
War in the Pacific
War Plan Orange (one of my favorites!)

I'm still hoping that someday someone will make a Carrier Strike-like game, updated with modern graphics and interface.

[cmunson]

I frequently read the forums but don't comment even once a year. heliodorus04 certainly lays into Grigsby but I for one like the way Grigsby layers in complexity without me having to deal with it. I would much rather have a hundred variables crunched to determine the outcome of a battle than a chariot destroying my armor unit like happened more than once in CivI.

The Western front has lots of good game play in it. Grigsby's old war in the west provided hours of entertainment. As the Germans I used to hold the allies on the beach until the last man only to discover there was no German army left between Normandy and the Rhine when the Allies did break out. I switched to a more inland flexible defense and did much better. Years later watching the history channel I learned that was the exact advice the Germans gave to the Japanese based on their experience in Normandy and it was subsequently used by the Japanese to devastating effect on Okinawa and elsewhere. As a wargamer and history nut it doesn't get any better than when the simulation teaches you the history.

It seems to me a lot of the complaints go to the frustrations people have on the obstacles they see thrown in front of them that prevent them from crushing their opponents. We all fantasize about divisions of Tigers and Elefants and if you want that spend some time in the editor. It is your right and you'll see no argument from me. Personally, I like overcoming the historical obstacles of production, weather and even political interference. I worry that games like WiTE will stop being made in my lifetime and sometimes I feel these forums are overly negative and perhaps create the impression these games aren't as loved as I know them to be.

Anyway, WiTE blown out to all of Europe and N. Africa would be a dream. I would even accept navies in the abstract. I think the German balancing act with all of the fronts in play would be the ultimate wargame experience. You could charge me $495 for the game and it would still come in at less than a $1 an hour for me (I'm on my 7th 41 campaign game in WiTE).

Kind regards and sincere gratitude to all those who make these games possible.