Community Request - Customized Designs

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Howard Mitchell
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Howard Mitchell »

ORIGINAL: Igard

Valid concerns, WoodMan.

I would hope that we have the sense to design these ships with an element of role-play in mind.

Maybe we should discuss our ideas a bit more before we jump in.

For example, Humans are 'all-rounders' yes? Try to give them a balanced design scheme.

Kiadians are smart but weak. Try to give them above average shielding, but low armour, less torpedoes (kinetic weapons are so uncivilized).

Perhaps we should give reasons for our design choices, or ask for feedback before we begin?


I completely agree. When designing my own ships I role-play based on the race's characteristics so it would be great if the designs for the other races do this to.

For example, Gizureans have a race victory condition of build the most ships. When playing them I keep my designs simple and cheap, using weight on numbers to overwhelm opponents. This ties in nicely with their lower maintenance costs. Gizureans have a huge reproduction rate and a hive mind so vast, expendable swarms of ships seems appropriate.

The Securans I play as being very careful with their people (coming from Utopian Paradise after all). I emphasise long range weapons and set them to flee when shields are at 50%. Avoiding casualties is very important.

Boskarans I play as hyper-aggressive, so I pack their ships full of weapons and put far less space into armour or shields. They also don’t flee. I’m not sure what the Boskaran for Banzai! Is but I imagine them shouting it as they charge the enemy.


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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

What happens if I design a whole set for the human A.I and then they find a superweapon ingame?
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WoodMan
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by WoodMan »

ORIGINAL: Sithuk

Woodman: I find the prospect of power play ship designs for each race attractive. My preference is for a challenging game first and foremost, roleplay second.

I respect your wish for a roleplay mode where you can nerf the ship design of races who are supposed to be less intelligent in the back story. A solution would be an easy way to select between shipsets in game setup. Similar to the mod selector we have at present?

My preference for the default base shipset is that it be a power play approach where the ship sets are optimised for the race specific techs.

The ships design will not be uniform due to the race specific techs, unless of course another race acquires the race specific tech through trading.

Perhaps a randomiser for which ship sets get used by each race? There are likely to be multiple optimised ship sets rather than a perfect design for each collection of techs?

In summary:
1) I prefer the ships to be the best possible for all races. No nerfs for roleplay reasons please.
2) Game setup feature for which ship set to use (either for each race or a single collection of sets for that game. Include a random feature for available ship sets)
Woodman: I find the prospect of power play ship designs for each race attractive. My preference is for a challenging game first and foremost, roleplay second.

Powerplay is fine with me, this doesn't mean everything has to be the same which is what this approach suggests. The suggestion I made incorprates roleplaying, (or we could say "variety", or "interesting racial differences" instead) and it also incorporates powerplaying as *most* of the races will still be balanced with this approach in terms of ships.

Furthermore if you want powerplay, have you tried playing as Shandar or Ugnari or Gizurean? These less intelligent races are completely overpowered compared to the Humans already, giving them ships as good as the more intelligent races would unbalance things as they don't have any negatives except their ship designs!!! For example depite their dumbness if you play Ugnari you will notice they research very fast due to creative re-engineering, a feature I like because its roleplaying, but... it means their only weakness now is their shipdesign because the penalty to research is reversed.

Have you played Shandar? No kidding here, I was able to set my taxes to 100% (or 99% because I was roleplaying and wanted my citizens to have *some* cash). This insane economy slays the Humans patetic economy.

I want a game where the race I choose completely changes the way I must approach the game. Ship designs are a huge part in this, some races are better militarily than others, making them the same is boring and doesn't make the game balanced anyway.

Hardpoint system for the win, then if you want a challenge, take a lesser race. (Edit: That last line is wrong, I mean if you want a ship design challenge, take a lesser race... they have other strengths as pointed out)
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

I suppose the best way is to play a race from the start 1 tech level and focus on its military policy techs and save a design every tech update.I will certainly add my view of the games racial lore in the design in my personal mod.
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Nedrear
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Nedrear »

Woodman your race character hardpoint system would fail big time in the event system. The foreign policy (race characteristics) in a voting year of the United Colonies or other things in my GW II mod are changing that a lot. Should they be unable to build ships then? I doubt it...
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

The A.I will only use 1 ship design per class type.So you will have to design for a multi role approach in mind for the A.I rather than what a player would do with a specialist design, ie bombard destroyer.
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dazoline II
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by dazoline II »

I've tried this out at bit and it seems that you have to make a file per ship rather than one file containing all your chosen upgrades?

As when I have two modified ships in the same file when I create a new game to see if their there only one gets loaded. While if I have two files on with each ship when I create a new game their both there.

Is this correct?
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Igard
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Igard »

Hey dazoline II, it's working for me with multiple ships in one file.

On the designs screen, are you selecting each ship 'ctrl + click on design', then click save selected desings?
That Vor'cha cruiser model is nice indeed! Now finish the picard mod before you go and revamp everything with custom ships! LOL!!!!

Thanks, Tophat! [:D] I'm not touching these custom designs for now, far too much work! I'll make some after the mods released, and perhaps some of you guys could help me wiht that. [:)]
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dazoline II
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by dazoline II »

Thanks, they all have to be highlighted to save. Good to know.

ORIGINAL: Igard

Hey dazoline II, it's working for me with multiple ships in one file.

On the designs screen, are you selecting each ship 'ctrl + click on design', then click save selected desings?
That Vor'cha cruiser model is nice indeed! Now finish the picard mod before you go and revamp everything with custom ships! LOL!!!!

Thanks, Tophat! [:D] I'm not touching these custom designs for now, far too much work! I'll make some after the mods released, and perhaps some of you guys could help me wiht that. [:)]
Moscow by winter? Only if you send Fast Heinz to Kiev.
morelyn
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by morelyn »

One problem I've had with saving ship designs, even before this beta, is that I would expect and prefer that if you start a new game and load your ship designs, they should override the default designs. What seems to happen instead is that the default designs are given new class names and exist side by side with your saved ones. So you have two destroyer designs, two frigate designs, etc.

It's not a major problem, but it means I have to go through and delete the designs I don't want, since I don't like looking at a design screen with so many designs I never intend to use.




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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

They do overide the default designs.I just tried it out.
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WoodMan
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by WoodMan »

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

Woodman your race character hardpoint system would fail big time in the event system. The foreign policy (race characteristics) in a voting year of the United Colonies or other things in my GW II mod are changing that a lot. Should they be unable to build ships then? I doubt it...


I don't think you understood what I meant. It has nothing to do with characters and the mechanics of this (the actual race stats) can not be changed mid-game by a mod as far as I'm aware. Unless you found some way to hack the code and program this in.
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morelyn
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by morelyn »

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

They do overide the default designs.I just tried it out.

Not in my game. Make sure you have the dropdowns set to Show All Designs and you'll see that the game has come up with a new set of class names (e.g., Executor, Enforcer, etc.) for the default designs and your saved designs will sit beside those.

[Edit: the problem seems to be that the game comes up with a new set of class names every time you start a new game, so your saved ship classes with the old class names from your original game look different.]

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Shadow Tiger
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Shadow Tiger »

Make sure you don't have something on the saved design that you can't build at the start. I had a set that was fine, except I had proximity sensors on some ships. Those designs were loaded but unused because I couldn't build them yet (starting tech). Another ship I had stripped down could be built, and it overrode the default design.

Haven't had time to test much yet, but looks like you can override the starting ships for a race. Which means for races like the Teeken you can actually have scaled down destroyers to start. [:D]
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Nedrear
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Nedrear »

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I don't think you understood what I meant. It has nothing to do with characters and the mechanics of this (the actual race stats) can not be changed mid-game by a mod as far as I'm aware. Unless you found some way to hack the code and program this in.

You are wrong. The event cycle in the race file allows you to change the race characteristic and add a timed event lasting X years every Y years.

Extract from UC file:

'Periodic Change Interval: number of years between change to racial characteristics (defined below), 0=no periodic changes
PeriodicChangeInterval ;3

'Periodic Change Length: number of years changed racial characteristics last (defined below), 0=no periodic changes
PeriodicChangeLength ;1

'Periodic Factors - Growth: periodic change to growth rate
PeriodicFactorsGrowth ;1.03

'Periodic Factors - Aggression: periodic change to aggression level
PeriodicFactorsAggression ;75

'Periodic Factors - Caution: periodic change to caution level
PeriodicFactorsCaution ;150

'Periodic Factors - Friendliness: periodic change to friendliness level
PeriodicFactorsFriendliness ;100

'Race event that occurs during change cycle: 0=None, 1-28=events (see Modding Guide)
PeriodicChangeCycleEvent ;18
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morelyn
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by morelyn »

It appears I was wrong about it being an artifact of Show All designs, but no, it's not overriding the defaults.

Start a new game, your new ship designs will appear at the top of the design screen, but if you sort by SubRole (click on that heading) you will see the default designs (with some new fabricated class names) appear. There's no overriding going on, at least as far as I can see. We're not talking semantics here, are we? A default class design is a default class design, no matter what class name it uses.

EDIT: ok, I'm sorry, I was wrong. I was saving designs from a game I'd already started, which appears to confuse matters. Nevermind, all is well. [:D]



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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

Ok I found a big flaw.It basically shows all designs you save on the design list.So the ships with later game tech will clog the design list even when you cannot build them..It would be nice for them to only appear when they are buildable or have another drop down on the UI.
morelyn
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by morelyn »

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Ok I found a big flaw.It basically shows all designs you save on the design list.So the ships with later game tech will clog the design list even when you cannot build them..It would be nice for them to only appear when they are buildable or have another drop down on the UI.

Right, that's what I was looking at when I thought it wasn't overriding (see my Edit above). You have to wonder if it will get confused ever about which design to upgrage.

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ASHBERY76
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by ASHBERY76 »

ORIGINAL: Morelyn

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Ok I found a big flaw.It basically shows all designs you save on the design list.So the ships with later game tech will clog the design list even when you cannot build them..It would be nice for them to only appear when they are buildable or have another drop down on the UI.

Right, that's what I was looking at when I thought it wasn't overriding (see my Edit above). You have to wonder if it will get confused ever about which design to upgrage.


It is a sorting issue than needs more drop downs in the Design UI.At present if you designed the whole races ships for tech1-7 the design list would be clogged to hell.Show latest designs drop down should not show future tech ships.I will not bother starting custom designs with this issue.
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Noble713
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RE: Community Request - Customized Designs

Post by Noble713 »

ORIGINAL: WoodMan

I really would like to see some kind of hardpoint system in the future, it would make creating ship designs much more fun for each race. For example, we keep the current size limit, but also add hardpoints, a peice of equipment takes up 1 hardpoint.

The hardpoints could be categorized:
Firstly, total hardpoints
then:

maximum weapons
maximum shields
maximum reactor
maximum armour

etc...

Then based on intelligence increase or decrease the max number of hardpoints, to make overall different quality ships. For example, if low intellgence, reduce total hardpoints by (pulling a number out of the air) 4. Then, you have to think, should I take off the shield or the reactor to make room for the laser etc.

Then based on personality, add or take away categorized hardpoints. So Quameno being intelligent would gain overall number of hardpoints, but lose weapons hardpoints due to the passiveness, and I guess gain shield hardpoints due to their cautiousness.

This would keep a difference between races (I think the next expansion should make this its mnain focus btw, difference between races) but make ship design great fun and I'm sure provide much fun for modders and some interesting strategic discussions for various races on the forums [:)]


This seems restrictive, gamey, and illogical to me. I am vehemently opposed to restrictions on ship design beyond the physical limitations of what I can put in a given volume. Doubly so when said restrictions are not based on the universal Laws of (Scifi) Physics.

Take a 100m cube. If Smart Race can fit 4 Titan Beams in the cube, why can Dumb Race only fit 3? There would have to be some technical deficiency in Dumb Race's Titan Beam design, and that would be best represented by making lower-tech versions of the same components take up more space than higher-tech ones (MOO2 style). Another plus for the necessity of component modding, BTW.

Or why can Passive Race only fit 3? What if the one guy in charge of ship design takes steroids and PCP and is aggressive as all hell?

Roided Passive Race Lead Designer: "HEY! I GOT AN IDEA! Why don't we put *4* Titan Beams in our 100m cube? Just like those other guys!"
Milquetoast Passive Race Engineer: "We can't. We're too passive for that."


Sorry, that just doesn't work for me. Such a system would have to be optional, as I would turn it (or mod it) off.
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