Helio (Axis) AAR vs Pelton (Sov)

[Walloc]

Exactly cause the soviet hexes are cut off and is therefor are out of supply. Since there are no ZOC on those hexes and because there is an opening to ur supplied hexes they switch to ur side. Assuming they had been in supply they wouldnt have swicthed, or the ZOC ring had been tight, like if the SEC reg had been 1 hex east, then it wouldnt have happened. Btw this is one of the fastest way for axis side in 41 to switch hexes. If used right.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[heliodorus04]

Thanks for the learnin.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Thanks for the learnin.

Np, and for the sake of learning. Just be happy Pelton isnt too experinced as Russian. I would have moved as black lines indicate. Take a guess about the effect [;)]
U really should move inf divs and they do have the MP to make it if u move in teh right order, IIRC, to the hexes with orange boxes, IMO.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[timmyab]

I think that screen is after Soviet moves.Also the HQ can't move into enemy hexes.
After looking at the latest screens I'm thinking the Bialystock pocket was probably unbreakable.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I think that screen is after Soviet moves.Also the HQ can't move into enemy hexes.
After looking at the latest screens I'm thinking the Bialystock pocket was probably unbreakable.

It is after moves yes, but it was just to show the problem. If u look at screenshoot in post 2, and compare u can see how it easily can be done. If u note the hex with the HQ it has a routed inf unit. Its purely luck/roll that, that unit isnt still there. The russian mot unit u can see in screenshoot in post 2 SW and the one inside the pocket E of it. Can very possibly depending on rolls move into 2 clear non ZoCed enemy hex and then u can link up with out with out needed the hex with the HQ. Depending on rolls in that way is very riscky IMO. Especially since its not needed. Just having stopped the mot reg West of Minsk up between the 2 other the mot regs and that advance possibility its all ZoCed out.

Linking up the Bialystok pocket is very easy. There are 4 hexes with no ZoC between the pocket and swamp hex. In another word u just need to move into 1 enemy hex from both sides as the next hex will switch cause of lack of ZoC preventing the switch and the link up is there. The AB will be displaced on moving next too it.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Ketza]

Concerning killing Soviet planes on turn one. I am averaging around 3.5 by using the delayed bombing tactic. What you do is wait to bomb Soviet airbases until the majority of your border attacks are complete after increasing your intercept rate to 150%. This kills a lot of Soviet airframes through air to air that fly GS while increasing your fighter exp and morale.

The next step is to bomb an airfield just before you overrun it to clear out all the damaged planes. I have seen an airbase overrun produce 100+ destroyed planes that way.

Last step is bomb the crap out of whatever is left.

As skethchy as the air war is in the end it prolly doesnt matter as even back in the good old days of killing 5k Soviet planes the red airforce blossomed but its fun to try and get the number up even with the new rules.

Will be watching this one [&o]

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: Walloc
Linking up the Bialystok pocket is very easy. There are 4 hexes with no ZoC between the pocket and swamp hex. In another word u just need to move into 1 enemy hex from both sides as the next hex will switch cause of lack of ZoC preventing the switch and the link up is there. The AB will be displaced on moving next too it.

It's the lack of combat units in the marshes that might be the problem.There may literally be no way to flip even one hex from the South.Close call though.

[Seminole]

Concerning killing Soviet planes on turn one. I am averaging around 3.5 by using the delayed bombing tactic.

I used to see a lot of focus on strategies to kill large numbers of Soviet planes on turn 1, and always wondered - why?
The initial planes are garbage and soon to be obsolete. The Soviets make enormous numbers of planes over the course of the campaign, and can safely train their air groups in the National Reserve before committing them to combat.

I view early Soviet airbases as little more than fuel depots for panzers, and try to move them way back early on so the Axis can't take advantage of them, which surely limits them some in effectiveness, but that effectiveness is relatively low anyway. I suppose some interdictions might cost motorized/panzer a few MPs, but does all the effort put into week one air losses really effect the campaign in a noticeable way?

[heliodorus04]

I had exceptionally good routing luck in that NW corner of swamp (Ivatsevici), so I didn't have anything there to worry about moving NW out of it. Where he likely could have opened the pocket was at Kovel, because he had routed units south of the railroad. If even 1 had rallied, he had the linkup. But it wouldn't have been much safer.

Also, in Turn 1, I believe it was 184 or 185 Rifle South of Vilnius that really performed well. It refused to route in 4 combats and on the fifth finally routed, and that impacted the movement of 3.PzrGrp. This, combined with the mis-click in Turn 1 that saw 10.Motor head south with 46.PanzerCorps meant things had to be a little looser than I usually play Turn 1.

I would not be surprised to learn later that Pelton simply did not care to exploit any deficiencies in my pocket creation on Turn 1, because he's more interested in things going 'normally' to prove/learn whatever he has up his sleeves against me.

[notenome]

Seminole it does because the engine values morale/experience way more than the airplanes quality. In most AARs the best soviet air groups will normally be flying obsolete craft, as they have the highest experience/morale, whilst the newer fellas have little to no chance to shoot down the luftwaffe. Personally I think the Axis should be more aggressive with the VVS, as this has a snowball effect- higher losses leads to lower morale/xp, which leads to higher operational losses and worse combat performance, which leads to lower morale/xp and so on. Whilst the Soviets can train their planes in the national reserve, this is a very slow process with diminishing returns. Keeping the proficiency of the red airforce down will pay dividends in the decisive years of 42 and 43, where the Axis need any edge they can get.

[Seminole]

engine values morale/experience way more than the airplanes quality. In most AARs the best soviet air groups will normally be flying obsolete craft, as they have the highest experience/morale, whilst the newer fellas have little to no chance to shoot down the luftwaffe.

Initial exp/morale of about 90% of Soviet air groups are between 45-55. In the NR you can get exp up to 50 and morale over 80 (I'd have to get on another computer to fire up the save and see, but I want to say morale was over 90 on many of my NR groups), without offering the Axis easy kills.
Selectively upgrading aircraft costs only a single AP. I turn off automatic updating because the AI would sometimes switch groups back and forth between obsolete and new aircraft if the new aircraft pools were low.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: notenome

Seminole it does because the engine values morale/experience way more than the airplanes quality. In most AARs the best soviet air groups will normally be flying obsolete craft, as they have the highest experience/morale, whilst the newer fellas have little to no chance to shoot down the luftwaffe. Personally I think the Axis should be more aggressive with the VVS, as this has a snowball effect- higher losses leads to lower morale/xp, which leads to higher operational losses and worse combat performance, which leads to lower morale/xp and so on. Whilst the Soviets can train their planes in the national reserve, this is a very slow process with diminishing returns. Keeping the proficiency of the red airforce down will pay dividends in the decisive years of 42 and 43, where the Axis need any edge they can get.

Frankly, since I consider the air war a crapshoot anyway, and would like to try new and novel things, what would you recommend then for settings, and how would you handle fighter/bomber fatigue and morale? I find over-use and over-movement of airbases to be big generators of fatigue, which snowballs into worse performance of the Luftwaffe (but this was back in 1.05, when I was being bombed into 200 fighters by December).

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

ORIGINAL: notenome

Seminole it does because the engine values morale/experience way more than the airplanes quality. In most AARs the best soviet air groups will normally be flying obsolete craft, as they have the highest experience/morale, whilst the newer fellas have little to no chance to shoot down the luftwaffe. Personally I think the Axis should be more aggressive with the VVS, as this has a snowball effect- higher losses leads to lower morale/xp, which leads to higher operational losses and worse combat performance, which leads to lower morale/xp and so on. Whilst the Soviets can train their planes in the national reserve, this is a very slow process with diminishing returns. Keeping the proficiency of the red airforce down will pay dividends in the decisive years of 42 and 43, where the Axis need any edge they can get.

Frankly, since I consider the air war a crapshoot anyway, and would like to try new and novel things, what would you recommend then for settings, and how would you handle fighter/bomber fatigue and morale? I find over-use and over-movement of airbases to be big generators of fatigue, which snowballs into worse performance of the Luftwaffe (but this was back in 1.05, when I was being bombed into 200 fighters by December).

It's actually the other way around, the air war is pretty predictable from the German side, quite different from land combat these days, especially hasty attacks.

German pilot quality rules, big time. Keep you fighter bases close to your spearheads. They will punish any attempt by your opponent at bombing units to prepare attacks.
Transfer Ju87 gruppe to the fighter airbases.
Use the cleared out airbases for more bomber gruppe and keep them as close to the railhaeds as possible.
Keep a very close eye at support/needed ratio's. Avoid placing more gruppe in an airbase than can be supported (2 gruppe and a Stab) as it will work contrary. 4 full strength gruppe will provide approx. as many ready bombers as 2 full strength gruppe. Better to rest the 2 excess gruppe and rotate when necessary.

Good luck, give old Pelton a good wacking for me [;)]

[KenchiSulla]

Good luck Helio, and have fun!

[heliodorus04]

So I’ve posted the Center and North screenshot already, and hopefully I’ll remember to post the south after recon (earlier pic was before recon). Administratively, I begin by sending any Recon that is on a LW airfield direct to reserve. I really want them out on the Army airbases, but I’ve learned over time that since you have no real shortage of Recon in 1941, and a stack of airbases can make it impossibly hard to select the group you want to transfer, so it’s simpler just to fly them to reserve.

Ultimately, there’s no point having recon on LW airbases. It is a drain on support elements that combat aircraft need. And even with 9 air units, your Support need is usually lower than what is generically available. Toward that end, I lower the Army airbases to 90 TOE (will check later how that washes out over time).

Note to the simple-minded (like me): when you set all aircraft to night missions, you can’t conduct recon… I hope this tip saves you 5 minutes of anguish. You’re welcome.

Looking over the F11 screen, Pelton conducted 1 Recon… After recon, he has gone into 1986-Nato in the south (ZoC blanket – is that linebacker? I forget the title). I do hate that strategy. In the center, he’s making a line at the Berezina north and south. In the north, he’s defending the Velikaya tooth and nail exactly as I would do.

At start of turn, I flew roughly 550-600 tons of fuel, most of which went to 57.Panzer and 41.Panzer. Transports all made 3 sorties (4 Ju-52 groups). That will serve them better now than later. For those not familiar with my stance, I make no mistake about showing that I am serious about Leningrad. 57.Panzer is committed, and will join 4.PzGrp probably this turn. 2.Army will also be committed to AGN, and most of my early divisions will go in to fill AGN. I do not Low-Ball Leningrad, and if I ‘over-commit’ I have some experience with how to recover from that well.
In the south, where I face a formidable defense, I fly 320 tons to 46.Panzer corps using 3 Ju-52 groups (that are in better shape than the north’s). The bombers fly to 48.Panzer, along with a few ready Ju-52s, and 270 tons go through.

Army group center, meanwhile, gets nothing from the skies.

I decided to start my division/army record-keeping on Turn 2, because I’m seeing such a forward-oriented defense early. Keeping records is the best way to predice whether a hasty will work (or whether you need a 2 or 3 stacked-hasty attack – which I abbreviate SHA).

I change up some HQ leaders. 1.Corps is the premier driver for Leningrad, and gets Model (right out of Pelton’s Axis guide, of course – it works). And I decide I’m doing 11.Army early.

Army Group North and center are relatively straight-forward on Turn 2, at least with the infantry: full speed ahead, with pocket clearing as governed by the need for efficiency. For me, the Turn 2 goal is unequivocally hex X73, Y34, the town of Ostrov south of Pskov, on the east-side of the Velikaya.

[heliodorus04]

A little War Room strategy discussion is appropriate:

[heliodorus04]

So Turn 2 discussion focuses on yellow squares. Turn 3 discussion focuses on white and black squares.

In Turn 2, Ostrov is the only meaningful goal for Army Group North. Everything north of Pskov and west of Lake Peipus is irrelevant to taking Leningrad. It is a fuel sink, and I don’t bother with it. The best way to take that area is by crossing the Luga/Orodezh River. Eventually, one corps of 2.Army is dedicated to that role on its march in to support Leningrad. Note that 57.Panzer corps has average 22 MPs remaining, and I’ve already taken Ostrov with a 2-SHA (stacked hasty-attack, with the number signifying the number of divisions attacking), and the motorized has enough MPs to enter the hex as well. In short, 3 units can get across this turn, and will.

Pelton may not realize how badly tank divisions defend in the first 5 or 10 turns of the game, and he defended it with a tank division that I routed first try, inflicting great damage on it (3K men). The motorized or infantry would definitely have been more resilient behind the river than a tank unit (with apparently only about 50 tanks). I would advise a Soviet player to ONLY man the yellow hexes, and at Ostrov itself, a 3-stack is preferred, but regardless, maximal strength must go there.
I see a lot of Soviet players trying to use a fall-back style defense, but they insist on manning every hex of a river line, as in the Dnepr and Daugava around the Land Bridge. When your objective is primarily to delay and fall back, it is only necessary to defend the forward hexes to project your ZOC. If the non-boxed hexes are empty in this illustration, either it’s impossible for me to cross the river/ZOC combination (and I think even for 57.Panzercorps units it is impossible if that were the case), or it’s foolish to do so because of the near-isolation position I put myself into.

Knowing the Axis operational tempo as well as I do now, I know that the only hex worth trying for is Ostrov. Even if a weak 3-stack of Soviets is displaced, the odds are that not all will route, and it would require more MPs from the German, which will be important on Turn 3.

Regardless of what happens on Turn 2, on Turn 3, the Soviet needs stronger units at the white boxes, and ZOC-generating units in the black boxes. It is tremendously important to defend this area and contest as much movement as possible, because a German who retains real high initiative here can make a lot of bad things happen for the Leningrad fronts. Next turn for Germany, the fuel stocks get BAD regardless of what I have or have not taken. Hopefully, as my fuel drops demonstrate, 57.Panzercorps will have good movement next turn – they’re my workhorse here. The more momentum I have, especially any that can be converted into crossings of the river south of Lake Ilmen, the more I can dictate the way Leningrad unfolds.

[heliodorus04]

Back to things…This is how AGN finished it’s T2 moves:

[heliodorus04]

Note that I had to guard my supply line from the Daugava this turn, because high morale units are threatening. But it played out well in terms of efficient use of movement, but it cost me a bit in APs to swap some units around (see AP notes).

The rationale behind the air base movement is so that I do not have to move at all (or much at the least) on Turn 3. The Ju-52 base may need to move forward prior to air resupply flights next turn, but that’s okay. They’re about 5 MPs from where railhead will be. The Bf-109s have to go forward far just to be able to support operations, and there was a good safe spot there. They are still within 5 of their HQ (and the level bombers are on the Daugava).

I think my AGN move is very solid this turn. I’m very pleased with it.

[heliodorus04]

AGC presents other problems: