australian defeat

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3989
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: australian defeat

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: castor troy
Taking empty terrain if the Japanese don't kill Allied troops would pretty much mean nothing to me as an Allied player.

That's why I said goad him into defending it by making him feel he can win. A sharp fast huge offensive into OZ will see the allied player simply give up on defending it. Sure Japan destroys everything there, but most of that is fixed stuff the allies never use anyway. If the allies see a chance to win in OZ, they will more than likely bring forces in from wherever they can to try and win the fight. And while they are doing that they are not attacking other areas with that stuff.

If you've come to OZ as the Japanese, then by 43 you should be making plans to leave if not already in the process of leaving. I do think it's feasible to fight a delaying withdraw up the east coast if you plan it well that will let you stay till perhaps April 43, but by then full evacuation should be underway. I'd only plan to stay at Darwin longer than that.

As to your game you are making a lot of strategic decisions in your post based on a very strong and favorable allied position. That is simply not typical for 95%+ of the games out there. It would be a mistake to base Japanese strategy on a game that is that successful as it might lead you to far over-estimate true allied capabilities and thus limit yourself too much.

Jim
User avatar
castor troy
Posts: 14331
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Austria

RE: australian defeat

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: castor troy
Taking empty terrain if the Japanese don't kill Allied troops would pretty much mean nothing to me as an Allied player.

That's why I said goad him into defending it by making him feel he can win. A sharp fast huge offensive into OZ will see the allied player simply give up on defending it. Sure Japan destroys everything there, but most of that is fixed stuff the allies never use anyway. If the allies see a chance to win in OZ, they will more than likely bring forces in from wherever they can to try and win the fight. And while they are doing that they are not attacking other areas with that stuff.

If you've come to OZ as the Japanese, then by 43 you should be making plans to leave if not already in the process of leaving. I do think it's feasible to fight a delaying withdraw up the east coast if you plan it well that will let you stay till perhaps April 43, but by then full evacuation should be underway. I'd only plan to stay at Darwin longer than that.

As to your game you are making a lot of strategic decisions in your post based on a very strong and favorable allied position. That is simply not typical for 95%+ of the games out there. It would be a mistake to base Japanese strategy on a game that is that successful as it might lead you to far over-estimate true allied capabilities and thus limit yourself too much.

Jim


oh, it's not my first AE full campaign, let alone WITP. And all (those where the IJ commander hasn't vanished) went the same line plus minus 6 months (compared to the PBEM I've mentioned plus 6 months of course). There are very few strategic decisions in the end and due to the map always being the same, you don't get so many choices, there are just a couple of big arrows on the map pointing towards Japan, no matter how the fight goes.
everton
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:47 pm

RE: australian defeat

Post by everton »

actually i was thinkin histrorically , if australia gets invaded before nov 42 would not Torch be cancelled and all the us assetts assigned be diverted to the pacific, it was after all a world war, within the game should not invading australia imo reflect this reality, invade oz and risk the US goin 'pacfic first'
User avatar
John 3rd
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: La Salle, Colorado

RE: australian defeat

Post by John 3rd »

Castor---HI Sir!--is spot-on with his comments about destroying LCUs. Want to keep those replacement pools dry as a bone!
Image

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3989
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: australian defeat

Post by Jim D Burns »

Heh... the notion that Japan could kill off enough allied troops to prevent the allies from being able to form new formations to replace them as a viable "strategy" for fighting WWII in the Pacific...

Sometimes this game leaves me in stunned silence.

All the while Japan's replacements are virtually unlimited in game.

Jim
User avatar
Crackaces
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:39 pm

RE: australian defeat

Post by Crackaces »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Heh... the notion that Japan could kill off enough allied troops to prevent the allies from being able to form new formations to replace them as a viable "strategy" for fighting WWII in the Pacific...

Sometimes this game leaves me in stunned silence.

All the while Japan's replacements are virtually unlimited in game.

Jim

The strategy of exhausting Allied pools takes Scenario #2, where the IJ become fully enriched prewar with supplies and materials and decide on world conquest. Also the world decide not only to reduce BB's but to create home rules like no 4E attacks below 10,000 feet, no use of 4E's for ground attacks in the open etc. severely reducing options so teh IJ can use thier 2E's with great effectiveness in China without likewise Allied effectiveness. Without such rules IJ units in the open with zero aircover become targets the IJ cannot replace [8D] Getting Allied armor vs. IJA in open hexes becomes a real killing field. One other thing, the game has changed over the past few Beta's where as I guess before supply did not move North from Alice Springs but I can say definitely it does now. That changes the game.

I am not comparing history with such constraints ...[;)]
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: australian defeat

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

It is a balance, and it could be that the JFB spends more resources in keeping OZ alive than he would in taking the place?

I don't think many Japanese players who invade Oz have closely looked at the garrison requirements for holding the thing. They get all het up over Darwin and Katherine, Perth and Geraldton. Big deal. They never add up the LCUs required to take and hold Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane.

Allied players are also usually like that dog in "Up" whenever a Japanese boot touches sacred Australian soil.

"Squirrel!!!"

If Oz is part of an auto-vic strategy, fine. It can be used for that. But without an auto-vic strategy it's like that old joke I keep trotting out about the dog that chased cars. What does he do with it once he catches it?
The Moose
User avatar
topeverest
Posts: 3380
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:47 am
Location: Houston, TX - USA

RE: australian defeat

Post by topeverest »

I think there is a strong argument for partial empire investment in Oz, as has been stated above and before. Allied launching northwest from Darwin certainly is one of the great early strategic threats to the empire. I also agree that assuming they are taken, the risks of continuning to hold major portions of Oz (excluding NW) into 1943 are great. In 43, the empire has the best chance for meaningful victory in the counterpulse at the point of allied invasion. Continental war against massed 4E and 2E is not a recipie for success, especially when the IJN can no longer realistically protect a withdrawl for Oz.

In this classic time and distance problem that is AE, there is no easy empire force allocation answer, but IMHO, Oz divestment needs to be planned if any meaningful subset of forces is to be saved.
Andy M
User avatar
John 3rd
Posts: 17511
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:03 pm
Location: La Salle, Colorado

RE: australian defeat

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JeffK

It is a balance, and it could be that the JFB spends more resources in keeping OZ alive than he would in taking the place?

I don't think many Japanese players who invade Oz have closely looked at the garrison requirements for holding the thing. They get all het up over Darwin and Katherine, Perth and Geraldton. Big deal. They never add up the LCUs required to take and hold Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane.

Allied players are also usually like that dog in "Up" whenever a Japanese boot touches sacred Australian soil.

"Squirrel!!!"

If Oz is part of an auto-vic strategy, fine. It can be used for that. But without an auto-vic strategy it's like that old joke I keep trotting out about the dog that chased cars. What does he do with it once he catches it?

Great note Bullwinkle. I have about 5 Inf Div worth of Garrison Requirements right now. While using Brigades and Regiments helps, I figure keeping Aussieland pacified will require 3 full strength ID plus the smaller fry. This is just to fulfill requirements. Doesn't say anything about trying to defend even just a portion of the place.

Image

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: australian defeat

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I think there is a strong argument for partial empire investment in Oz, as has been stated above and before. Allied launching northwest from Darwin certainly is one of the great early strategic threats to the empire. I also agree that assuming they are taken, the risks of continuning to hold major portions of Oz (excluding NW) into 1943 are great. In 43, the empire has the best chance for meaningful victory in the counterpulse at the point of allied invasion. Continental war against massed 4E and 2E is not a recipie for success, especially when the IJN can no longer realistically protect a withdrawl for Oz.

In this classic time and distance problem that is AE, there is no easy empire force allocation answer, but IMHO, Oz divestment needs to be planned if any meaningful subset of forces is to be saved.

I've always been unpersuaded of Darwin's value. In the old days when supplies flowed there freely there was an argument. Now that supply does not everything in Darwin has to be shipped anyway. As easy to tell the ships to continnue on to their invasion objectives without the interim stop.

That presupposes that I think the DEI is a proper place for the Allies to bash their heads. I don't, necessarily. It plays to all of Japan's in-game advantages in LBA. It's a bog. But if Darwin can be taken by Japan, fine. It's at the end of a long road. The Allies have other means to isolate it and starve it without use of ground troops better used elsewhere.

Your point about the risks of Japan holding major portions only into 1943 make my point again. Why take it if there is no way to hold it, if auto-victory is not achieved? Areas of Oz often taken by Japan are essentially worthless to the Allied player, either economically or strategically. The NW corner is a good example. What does Japan DO with that, except use up strength holding and supplying it? Unless Perth is a supply hub linked to CT, why does the Allied player care if Japan holds it? Even to the end of the war? It's a backwater to the essential Allied objective of closing on Japanese centers of gravity and burning them down.

Japanese players who take western or northern Oz knowing they will be ejected in 1943 compound the mistake. What's the point? The Allies do not have to engage there; they simply don't. Most do, for emotional reasons, but it's not mandatory. Certainly they don't have to until they can engage on their terms, with modern armor and very good 4Es. Why do Japanese players hang their chins out in 1942 and beg to have them broken? Because it's "fun"? Fun to kill understrength Allied LCUs and run rampant for a year, feeling powerful and mighty? Yep. No other reason. That combat power could be far better employed on the Japanese defensive perimeter when the Allies come to call in 1944. But since most Japanese players have never seen 1944 they don't realize that.

To my Allied friends let me just say: A Japanese attack does not necessarily deserve a response.
The Moose
User avatar
Bullwinkle58
Posts: 11297
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:47 pm

RE: australian defeat

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: JeffK

It is a balance, and it could be that the JFB spends more resources in keeping OZ alive than he would in taking the place?

I don't think many Japanese players who invade Oz have closely looked at the garrison requirements for holding the thing. They get all het up over Darwin and Katherine, Perth and Geraldton. Big deal. They never add up the LCUs required to take and hold Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane.

Allied players are also usually like that dog in "Up" whenever a Japanese boot touches sacred Australian soil.

"Squirrel!!!"

If Oz is part of an auto-vic strategy, fine. It can be used for that. But without an auto-vic strategy it's like that old joke I keep trotting out about the dog that chased cars. What does he do with it once he catches it?

Great note Bullwinkle. I have about 5 Inf Div worth of Garrison Requirements right now. While using Brigades and Regiments helps, I figure keeping Aussieland pacified will require 3 full strength ID plus the smaller fry. This is just to fulfill requirements. Doesn't say anything about trying to defend even just a portion of the place.


I haven't looked in about two years, but I believe the Japanese garrison requirement for Sydney alone, after the place is taken (it normally has Forts 9 in 1942) is over one division.
The Moose
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”