Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

[timmyab]

45 NM feels about right to me for both 1941 and 1942.The difference between a 40 and a 50 morale unit is massive.At 40 you're dealing with ants that are quite likely to rout if attacked, at 50 you're looking at a solid 3 CV unit that's unlikely to rout.45 units are kind of useful and semi-reliable, but you're not going to build the Maginot line with them.
I also think training should be limited to national morale and only one point gained per turn.
By the way, non-routing sec regiments are still a problem in this game.

[smokindave34]

The cap at a morale of 45 seems about right - I think this would essentially put the Soviets back to where they were pre patch.

[carlkay58]

The following is the relevant section on Soviet National Morale and its evolution through the various builds:

9.1.3. Basic Levels of National Morale
The below table summarises the basic national morale level for each nation. Note that national morale can also be modified by the difficulty level Morale Level Modifier in the game option screen. (3.3.3). For Germany and the Soviet Union, the national morale level will change over time.
Country/Year Soviet Union
1941 40
1942 50
1943 50
1944 50
1945 50

v1.03 Beta 3 - February 7, 2011
Each turn there is a chance that a unit’s morale will be lowered by 1 or 2 points if its morale exceeds its national morale by 30 points or more.

v1.05.18 - September 6, 2011
Soviet National Morale has been changed to 50 in June 1941. One point is subtracted each month after this in 1941 (so it is 44 in Dec 41). In 1942 it is set to 40, with one point being added each month starting in September 1942 (so 44 in Dec 42). This continues in 1943 and 1944 until the Soviet National Morale reaches its maximum of 60 in April 1944.

v1.05.59 - January 31, 2012
National Morale of Soviets in 1942 is now 45. Starting with January 1943, the Soviet National Morale increases by 1 each month, until it reaches 60 in March 1944.
All Soviet units of size Brigade or smaller have a minimum national morale of 50.

The current version has the National Morale of 50 in June, 41 and drops one each month to 44 in Dec 41. Then it is 45 for all of 42 until it starts its one point increase to a max of 60. The bug fix that causes all of this allows the WAD which depends on a morale level of 50 - totally disregarding the National Morale level. So if the NM is less than 50, the EFFECTIVE NM is really 50 regardless of nationality because of the formula. So the formula should be changed to be limited by the National Morale level rather than 50 or change to the lesser of the two. If it is not the lesser of the two, then nations with NM > 50 will enjoy the increased recovery effects for longer and recover faster. This deserves some thought by the designer because it may fix other problems in the later parts of the game and would definitely have a large impact on WitW and other campaigns.

But we are currently debating that the Soviet NM of 50 degrading to 44 in 41 is too tough. Note that the Soviet NM in 41 was at 40 until version 1.05.18 when it became the current 50. This change occurred within the first year of release. Recalling why it was raised may be important at this time - although the morale recovery bug may have had an effect on the original decision to increase the Soviet NM. The Combat Result 1-1 increase to 2-1 was based on the Soviet NM of 40 - increasing the NM then threw that mechanism against the wall and broke it badly. The current situation has definitely shown that the Soviets do not need that boost any more to be able to counter attack successfully in 41.

But what we are doing here is trying to come up with a 'quick and dirty' fix. We will only get a single shot at this so we should examine it completely and remember how and why we got to where we currently are so we end up closer to where we wish to be. It sounds like we have the month of July to solidify what we truly want so we should spend the time wisely and not just pick another number of the air but rather give it some thought.

[Joel Billings]

This is the item that was not working for years but fixed with the last official version:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

This particular item is limited to NM, not 50. So if Soviet NM was limited to 45, AFAIK, this method of gaining morale would not take a unit over 45. On the other hand, the morale gains from being over 10 hexes from the enemy would lead to units going up to 50. Also, Soviet brigades always have NM of 50, and mountain, cavalry and airborne units get a +5 to NM.

[BletchleyGeek]

I've been for a long time off this game but... Pelton, after a fashion, has been correct over all these years with respect to National Morale mechanics being broken and biasing the game towards the Soviet Union (since Germany can't really get any benefits from their designed higher level of NM).

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion.

Anybody who has played this game knows that the CV one needs to look at is the offensive (base) CV of the stack. Defensive CV is a mirage: almost always higher than it actually ends up being due to a number of factors. Engineers reducing forts before combat, bad leadership rolls of the defender leader, and of course, losses suffered by the defender during combat. In the three instances, Germany has an advantage in 1941: substantial numbers of Eng SU's that can be attached to specific units, bad or average infantry values for the vast majority of Soviet commanders, higher experience in units ground elements, entailing higher ROFs and therefore, more firepower.

So, really, what carlkay said

But what we are doing here is trying to come up with a 'quick and dirty' fix. We will only get a single shot at this so we should examine it completely and remember how and why we got to where we currently are so we end up closer to where we wish to be. It sounds like we have the month of July to solidify what we truly want so we should spend the time wisely and not just pick another number of the air but rather give it some thought.

which actually is what morvael said in the Tech Support forum

I would be happy with basing all the morale recovery rules to NM, so that:

The unit's morale is below NM, and it is in refit mode [and more than 10 hexes away from a supplied enemy unit].
The unit's morale is below NM, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
The unit's morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale.
The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than NM+5. If Die (NM+5) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.

An elegant solution to WitE woes doesn't necessarily imply a massive programmer time effort, maybe it will suffice some informed discussion and a minor programmer time investment, rather than appealing to demagogic arguments.

[Gabriel B.]

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

[mktours]

I don't support the often change of codes. usually people play a pbem for several months, if the codes change so often, then we have to adjust to them and change strategy in an ongoing game, that would be disturbing to most players. The question discussed here could be fixed by those players themselves, simply by setting the number at 110 or 120 for one side and then the two people are happy.

I am now doing a pbem game and fighting foward, but i didn't see the russian are so powerful at all as there is nothing they can do to combat the germans on the open ground, so defence is the only option. and the Germans have all the initiative. if they can't make the best of it, that is only themselves to be blamed. To be honest, no a general in the panzer era is willing to sit back and surrender the initiative unless he has to.

Of course, granted the two people having the same skill, then the game is very liking ending in russia victory. But if it is going to resemble a history scene, why shouldn't Russia win? Historically Russia have so many overwhelming advantages in that war.

i would vote for keeping the game resembling the history, if anybody would like a even battle, he can choose his own setting or using house rules. the game can't be even, as this was not a even war in history.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I am about to go offline for 4 days. Just wanted to ask where your German game stands in the context of these discussions. Are you just too good, so your experience must be thrown out and your techniques cannot be learned from, or have even you been slowed down with latest versions? I suppose you think that if you played both sides your Russian player would easily win?

Our schedule is terrible until the end of July with critical WitW work and everyone taking vacations (at 2by3 and Matrix) and Historicon coming up, so I would not expect any changes for at least a month. But first some consensus of what is needed must be determined.

If I follow the rule changes correctly, the following morale gain rule has been changed as noted:

If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode --> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

So both items Pelton suggests to elminate are if over 10 hexes from enemy. Yes, they were by design in order to allow units in the rear to quickly improve to a minimum morale level (50). I don't think we'd ever want to eliminate these rules entirely, but perhaps they could be changed to a different minimum morale level (45, or NM not to exceed 45 if you want to keep the Axis Allies down).

Michael, your idea for a change has a different impact in it does reduce the impact of some NM gains, but still allows a Soviet player that keeps units in the rear refitting to get units to 50. I'm not saying one is better, just that they are two different changes.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'll try to take a look at this thread when I return next week and before I leave for my 25th marriage anniversary vacation.

[mktours]

good point

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

First of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player.

2nd Germany has been nerfed to death over the yrs to balance the game. So your whining is not going to help make the game better.

Unlike yourself green horn most of the guys debating this issue have been around and want the game to be balanced. WE SUPPORT GHC AND SHC, not one side.

MT is undefeated as SHC and GHC 3+ yrs running so if he posts about something being unbalanced then it probably is sonny boy.

Read some threads and learn something from the guys that have been here for a long time or you will always be a non-factor.[/b]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: mktours

good point

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

Read above post newbie, lol

[Michael T]

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion

Its relevant because 2 X CV 20 plus units are immune to a hasty. A deliberate is required, possibly by more than one stack. Previously the Soviet might manage a handfull of such stacks in any given operational area. But now we see stacks like this all over the place. And if the Axis manages to get thru he then faces a horde of CV 3 plus ID attacking and driving him back with unsustainable losses in AFV, Art etc.

If I had the time I would dearly love to take apart some of these guys with opinions that everything is sweet.

Ketza, Bobo, DV and others it would be benificial if you would offer your views. Otherwise we might end up with no fix and that will be bad for the game.

[Michael T]

I also think that lowering Soviet morale to an effective 45 would mean we would see players being more selective with reserves. As putting 45 morale units in reserve is frought with danger.

This would be a good thing and remove, at least in my case, the need for HR about reserves.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion

Its relevant because 2 X CV 20 plus units are immune to a hasty. A deliberate is required, possibly by more than one stack.

"Immune" meaning low odds of success, indeed. And using deliberate attacks precludes from achieving those massive encirclements. I can understand that for German players, uncertainty like that (very much like Random weather) can become quite a problem in order to optimize operations and even the odds.

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Previously the Soviet might manage a handfull of such stacks in any given operational area. But now we see stacks like this all over the place.

And if the Axis manages to get thru he then faces a horde of CV 3 plus ID attacking and driving him back with unsustainable losses in AFV, Art etc.

Okay Michael, now this is an argument. CV 3 Soviet RD should be very rare, perhaps no more than 10% or 15% of the whole force. CV 4+ RD's should be precious as pigs of platinum.

[Michael T]

BG if you update your game, load the CG, on T1 set all the rear area Stavka ID to refit. Click thru to turn 4. Check em out. Most will be close to 50 morale and CV 3, some CV 4, nearly all at least CV 2.5. If these units are placed in woods/swamps with a fort of 1 or 2 stacked 2 or 3 high they are almost unmovable except via very big attacks. And entire Pz Corp can be dislodged when they counter attack in numbers.

[Gizuria]

I'd just like to say that there are people who play this game solely against an AI opponent and so a buff to the Soviet AI side is welcome. Just how many of us there are compared to the H2H players who dominate this group I have no idea. Obviously, you H2H guys are very vocal about what you'd like to see changed in the game to balance the game for your contests. While we solo players are generally a quiet bunch and so don't have much 'say'.

[mktours]

you are poor manner, as what you did in your game against MT. stay away from me, my comment wasn't going towards you, and you are no welcomed by me.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: mktours

good point

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

Read above post newbie, lol

[mktours]

repeated post

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

I'd just like to say that there are people who play this game solely against an AI opponent and so a buff to the Soviet AI side is welcome. Just how many of us there are compared to the H2H players who dominate this group I have no idea. Obviously, you H2H guys are very vocal about what you'd like to see changed in the game to balance the game for your contests. While we solo players are generally a quiet bunch and so don't have much 'say'.

Giving advantage to the opponent is not buff for the AI. AI is the same. When you have no problems in crushing AI, why you don't try multiplayer? It's much more fun. Or you can simply adjust the settings to whatever suits you. AI will never protest. However finding opponent who will agree with boosting Axis morale/logistic and lowering Soviet won't be that easy.

btw. its not our fault that "solo players are generally a quiet bunch"

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

First of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player.

2nd Germany has been nerfed to death over the yrs to balance the game. So your whining is not going to help make the game better.

Unlike yourself green horn most of the guys debating this issue have been around and want the game to be balanced. WE SUPPORT GHC AND SHC, not one side.

MT is undefeated as SHC and GHC 3+ yrs running so if he posts about something being unbalanced then it probably is sonny boy.

Read some threads and learn something from the guys that have been here for a long time or you will always be a non-factor.[/

Here's a couple of suggestions. First, anyone who plays the game has a valid opinion (even if you personally disagree with them) and you setting yourself as some sort of umpire deciding who can and cannot comment helps very little. Second, if you want people to listen to you, perchance keep your responses polite?

For what its worth, what is an ideal set of dynamics for 1941 - assuming players of relatively balanced skill.

June-July should be utter chaos for the Red Army, any front line will evaporate if it is the focus of a sustained German attack. August-September, the Soviets should be able to conduct limited counterstrokes but the reality is it should be overmatched by the tempo at which the Germans can conduct the war. By October-November, slowly, apart from where the Germans have concentrated (or where the front long fell apart) the Soviet defense should have some robustness, even if counterstrokes are still more characterised by optimism rather than reality.

So what some German players want for the whole of 1941 up to blizzard in reality only occured in June-July.

Now given we have a turn 1 that allows the Germans to do too much and a model of Soviet decision making that removes the reason for the secondary disasters that allowed their offensive to regain speed (in some sectors) in late summer, any such balance is exceptionally hard to achieve.

But the simple reality is that as 1941 went on, the German offensive increasingly narrowed so they could concentrate to achieve the sort of power needed to pierce the slowly deepening Soviet defense.

Now how best to construct that lot in the context of this game I'm not sure. It may well be that a solution that works is lower Soviet NM etc but I'd also suggest looking at some of the existing options in terms of default settings - as suggested earlier in this thread.

[821Bobo]

As has been stated by Pelton and others, the problem is this part of rules

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

--> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

Actually I would not remove this completly, just make some adjustment. Like they should be really in the rear. Not only 10 hexes, but 50.
As I see it, getting NM over national limit can be considered as some sort of training. It should be possible, but far away from the front and with gain 1-2 points per week at best.
Sitting in 2nd defensive line/huge carpet or whatever few hexes behind the front in reserve status can not be considered as training at all.
And yes they doesn't have to be in refit mode. Me and others have observed that Rumanians are getting to 50 without being in refit mode. So the refit part of the rule is not working anyway.

Regarding lowering Soviet NM in 1941 to 45 I am not sure. Rifle division with 45 morale and close to 100 TOE will still have 2-3 CV. This is enough for the standard Soviet en masse counterattacks and decent defence values. Probably good enough when "equal" players play.