OT: Death on Skyline Drive (No Schanilec)

[HansBolter]

I absolutely loved this game series when it first came out. I also have the re-released new version and the only hardship I find in playing it is the lack of an edge scrolling map and having to deal with the now antiquated and clunky interface that requires using scroll bars. Otherwise it's still very much a gem.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I absolutely loved this game series when it first came out. I also have the re-released new version and the only hardship I find in playing it is the lack of an edge scrolling map and having to deal with the now antiquated and clunky interface that requires using scroll bars. Otherwise it's still very much a gem.

Edge scrolling map? I have zero problems playing this game..maybe it is something I can help you with.

Thanks for the post. One of my favorite games.

[jeffk3510]

Turn 13

Marc fired into my lines with everything he had...zero results for him. I see a Greyhound platoon has showed up west of town. The only thing I can do is assault it if I get close enough to it..not too worried about it, but I don't have anything to counter it.

[jeffk3510]

Turn 13 results.

Good day for my troops. I am a tad nervous about the armor showing up west of town like I mentioned. That is why I moved my flanking batallion on a shorter route than planned...I'll just have to snuff out the units in that town later on or let them throw themselfs at our lines later..

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

This is interesting.

A very fun game. Have you ever played either of the three CS games?

East Front
West Front
Rising Sun

[nashvillen]

Jeff, what is the link to this game? Looks like fun.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

Jeff, what is the link to this game? Looks like fun.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/318 ... ign.Series

It's a lot of fun.

[LoBaron]

This really looks interesting Jeff! Good ARR, will follow this for sure.

How is the complexity with regards to unit attributes? Does it simulate stuff like ammunition consumption and different equipment or is it more high level like in WitP?
How much time do you usually spend on a turn in a scenario as this one?

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Ahem ... isn't this the wrong forum for this game? Just saying ... it's the WitP:AE forum!

Exactly the guy who stubbornly posts every miniscule crap he does not know about WitP gameplay in the tech section of the forums, and reacts like pissed of teenager when someone mentions, tries to provide suggestions on forum etiquette?

Thank you Cliffy, you made my day!

[corbon]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This really looks interesting Jeff! Good ARR, will follow this for sure.

How is the complexity with regards to unit attributes? Does it simulate stuff like ammunition consumption and different equipment or is it more high level like in WitP?
How much time do you usually spend on a turn in a scenario as this one?

Ammunition consumption is, I think, basically a chance to run out of ammo each shot (well, run low, which means reduced effect for your shooting and assaults) which is based on the scenario and range from HQ. Then a chance each turn to 'recover' if you are low, based again on scenario and distance from HQ - assuming yor HQ is active (not moved) and in command itself.
On many scenarios the chance is negligible. On others its very high, 30%+ per shot.
Every 'base' has 1-6 strength points (SP) reach representing a half-squad, heavy weapon, gun or vehicle (or aircraft). Infantry bases always start out with 6SP, thoses MMGs would be 4s, the 60mm Mtr probably a 3 I think, the greyhound a 5. Each base type, for each nation and year (and for example, Motor inf is different from footsloggers who are different from paras etc, and a 37mm gun is different from a 57mm gun etc etc), has a large range of attributes, include soft and hard attack values at various ranges. Each base has 100Action Points (AP) per turn, with varying movement costs for different terrain, loading and unloading, shooting and assaulting. AP 'saved' may be used by the AI in reaction fire during the next enemy turn, but you have no control over that. For example, those german motorised infantry would cost 30AP to move into a normal hex, and 35AP per shot, so can sometimes move 1 and shoot twice. But moving into woods costs 65, so thats move once shoot once.
When you attack, each SP actually does an individual attack with a dice roll I believe, then those attacks are aggregated. So you may kill some enemy SPs, disrupt their base, retreat their base, have no effect, or any combination thereof.
The Leaders can add a bonus to attack odds, assault odds, and morale rolls (mostly disrupt recovery), depending on their leadership stat (if its higher than the bases morale).
Morale is individual per base, and degrades with casualties (a little). It is used for recovering from disrupt mostly. I think the unit can also use HQ morale (usually a little higher) if it is in HQ range.
Disrupted units cannot move closer to known enemy, cost double AP to move, and shoot and assault at reduced effect. They also automatically retreat from an assault if there are undisrupted units only on one side after the assault results. And retreating with no place to retreat to = surrender
Anything I missed?

A very small scenario like this one (so far at least) almost certainly takes less time to do a turn than read about it, let alone type it.
Some of the larger scenarios (and there are hundreds) are divisional or corps sized, but with no change in scale. They can take hours to do a single move, and then 20minutes or more just watching the turn results.
You can also play Linked Campaign Games (campaigns with a plan that changes by your results I think) or take a unit and run it through a campiagn made up of random scenarios with a small date change, your unit taking caualties, increasing in experience, receiving replacements (whoops, the fresh guys have no experience and starting morale) and receiving medals for good performances. I've taken battalions through the entire war doing this, great fun, over 50 games starting with 1941 kit and cheering every time an upgrade was received, ending with '45 kit. At times it can be bad, when you are outclassd kit-wise (when you start running into T34s and KVs from example, with PzIIIFs), but thats all part of the fun. After a while you will often get offered a higher command if you are doing well, but that just means bigger, more time consuming games.

My only complaint is that recon doesn't seem to get any defensive bonus. Or probably I'm doing something wrong. Recon is always lightly armoured, and by mid war usually you end up with the entire base destroyed as soon as you 'find' anything. If you can see them, they can certainly shoot you!

[Cribtop]

Cool explanation.

Recon is tough to simulate. Even in tabletop miniatures we often ended up functionally with the sort of "recon by death" you describe.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

This really looks interesting Jeff! Good ARR, will follow this for sure.

How is the complexity with regards to unit attributes? Does it simulate stuff like ammunition consumption and different equipment or is it more high level like in WitP?
How much time do you usually spend on a turn in a scenario as this one?

Thank you for the comment. I am glad you asked, and glad this is spurring interest.

I feel like this game is a hidden gem. I really do. Excellent tactical level WW2 game..best in my opinion that isn't real time.

All units are represented in this game with a wide variety of attributes. The games smallest unit is a platoon that is generally 6 infantry men inside the platoon for example. Individual leaders are represented as well. There is also a chain of command that I don't think really matters, but I tend to keep them together for historical sake during the game. There are armor facing effects and soft and hard attacks with different ranges. All very very simple to understand however. There is also a range of sight that is effected by the terrain and elevation changes. This can be used to a huge advantage during the opponents turn for ambushes for example. It does stimulate ammunition consumption to a point. Like mentioned above, you have headquarter units that must be "in range" of any unit to supply them. The higher the HQ, the larger its range. Btl all the way up to Army HQ...Army HQ covers the entire map, no need to move it. Artillery is represented all the way down to the mules to carry them in some scenarios. Overall, it is the one game I have never uninstalled from my computer since the day I bought it. Music is kind of catchy too. It is an IGO-UGO system. PBEM is a lot of fun.

Here is a map below with a few notes to familiarize yourself, and I'll post some more with gun range examples and LOS examples.

This is the main screen of all of the choices available, and where you will spend your most time. There is also a zoomed out 2D map that is very useful on the larger scenarios, which I don't care to play. I like the smaller battles as they make you think more IMO.

On the map is a line of American vehicles. Tanks, Tank destroyers, HQ, Commanders, Halftracks, and AA Halftracks. Note the terrain and the many different roads, hexside details and hex details (orchards, trees..yada yada) It doesn't take a genius to figure out a wooded area with a road higher up is an excellent place to put your men in.

On the top right (Y) is the quick pop up menu for every unit you select. It gives you a list of information about said unit. Strength is the number of tanks in this certain platoon. Action is the total action points available per turn. Assault is how well the unit assaults. Defense is defense. Fire cost is how much of your action points it costs to fire every time. If a unit doesnt move in a turn, it can fire twice 99% of the time. Some MG platoons can fire three times. Morale is morale...it turns red and his higer if a commander is in the same hex...they help defense and add to assault values when assaulting. The bar on the bottom is the action points which you will look at the most..when gone, your unit is done for the turn. The white bar is 35 for this unit, which is a quick glance to let you know how much action points you can use up in order to still fire after moving. Pretty cool.

Down on the bottom is a wide variety of buttons you will use throughout the game.

A allows you to switch between movement or firing mode. I never use it as the keyboard shortcut is control to switch back and forth.
B brings up a quick menu to find all friendly artillery on the map, and allows you to place firing spots from there. Very very handy, especially for off map artillery.
C is the button to load/unload infantry/artillery/mortars...anything that can be loaded up. Units that can load troops will have a helmet icon in the popup menu (Y) filled in when loaded, opaque when empty)
D allows certain units to attempt to improve a position (dig in)
E double quick units..I never use this
F Save APs for firing. By selecting this, it will allow you to move your unit as far as possible, and still save APs to fire.
G same as F except for unloading/loading units
H resolves the current assault. *to assault, you simply click on the adjacent hex and it will bring up assault odds and counterattack odds. You continue clicking to add any units to assault up to a certain point. there is a stacking limit per hex..roughly 6 units or so I think. In the options "Extreme Fog of War" assault odds are unknown, adding realism.
I place air attack (if available) on selected hex
J AI control
K zoom
L unit base. I ALWAYS use this. It shows the nationality of all units on the map..hard to see some without this.
M mini map
N Line of Sight for selected unit
O Unit organization
P Next unit
Q command range for HQs (shows you what units are within it's supply range)
R unit's gun range. Both against hard and soft units
S arrived reinforcements
T remove unit from map (I've never used)
U displays all hexes within movement range for selected unit
V end turn
W current players turn
X amount of smoke shells for artillery in scenario

[jeffk3510]

Here is an example of range of fire for selected unit. The halftrack in this example. It can fire on only the adjacted hexes on hard targets (red) and a few hexes out on all soft targets (blue). Every unit has different ranges. The Pershing and King Tigers can fire a huge chunk of the map and are excellent sniping units in ambush spots.

Also note on the unit icon on the top right how I talked about units that are carrying troops. This has a loaded infantry mans helmet on it that is full. It is more than likely carrying a US infantry platoon..probably not artillery. Those are generally trucks in this scenario.

[jeffk3510]

Here is the example of selecting the LOS icon. You can do this for any hex on the map, to help determine where to move troops so you wont be fired upon by enemy units and where to place yours to cover spots..

The range actually extends outside of this screen shot...scrolling on the map takes care of this.

[nashvillen]

Well, I have bought it and am hooked by the small unit tactics and the use of terrain for maneuver and cover.

[nashvillen]

I just spent 2.5 hours that I could have been doing WitP:AE doing this...

[nashvillen]

grrr.... should have been in bed an hour ago...

[corbon]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
There is also a chain of command that I don't think really matters, but I tend to keep them together for historical sake during the game.

It matters a lot in larger scenarios. Your HQs are unavailable for supply tests, and possibly morale tests, if they move, and I believe for supply, they can't resupply if they are not in supply themselves.
Its minor when you have a 1-2% chance of running low on supplies in a scenario, huge when its 10-30%+ (per shot)

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

This is the main screen of all of the choices available, and where you will spend your most time. There is also a zoomed out 2D map that is very useful on the larger scenarios, which I don't care to play.

I believe this is originally a basic hex and counter boardgame wargame (in design at least), with all the dice and mechanics under the computer hood. The 2D screen really shows this up. 3D is just 1980s style plastic figures replacing the counters.

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510On

On the top right (Y) is the quick pop up menu for every unit you select. It gives you a list of information about said unit. Strength is the number of tanks in this certain platoon. Action is the total action points available per turn. Assault is how well the unit assaults.

Per SP. a 3SP base assaults half as strongly as an identical 6SP base. Some things are per base, some things are done by each SP within the base, though reports and effects are always by the base.

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

B brings up a quick menu to find all friendly artillery on the map, and allows you to place firing spots from there. Very very handy, especially for off map artillery.

Heh, if you don't read the pre-scenario notes well (sometimes even if you do!), you might not even realise you have off-board artillery if you don't check this button!

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

D allows certain units to attempt to improve a position (dig in)

Its a something percent chance each turn, with engineers getting a bonus, and a noticeable malus if the hex has lots of other stuff in it.

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

E double quick units..I never use this

Units (foot only) that double time use about 25-30% less AP when moving (typically an infantry base can move 4 clear spaces instead of 3, mortars 3 instead of 2), but suffers a heavy penalty if shooting or assaulting, and the enemy gets a large bonus if shooting at you. It can only be done every second turn, and the speed increase lasts one turn, but the penalties last two turns.
Its important in some scenarios, especially for reinforcements that might take 4-6 turns to get anywhere near the fighting.

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

there is a stacking limit per hex..roughly 6 units or so I think. In the options "Extreme Fog of War" assault odds are unknown, adding realism.

24SP/hex so 4 full strength infantry, usually 6 armour/gun platoons. Armoured wrecked vehicles also count (possibly with a limit to their maximum 'count as' - and if 12 or more wrecks within a hex will block LOS through the hex too.

Also to use roads or trails, no more than 12SP in the nex, includig the moving base (otherwise you pay the off-road APcost for moving). But only at the instance of the move, so an unlimited number of SPs can drive through the same road hex in the same turn.

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

N Line of Sight for selected unit

Note also that LOS maximum is affected by weather, set for the scenario. Eg 20 hexes might be normal daylight, 15 hexes overcast, 12 hexes light rain, 6 hexes heavy rain, 1 hex night, and similar.
Also due to FoW, you can't necessarily spot everything in LOS. Stationary defenders, infantry and ATGs in particular, sometimes don't get spotted until you trip over them (or more likely they Op-Fire), even in the open! And small ATGs can sometimes stay hidden even after they fire (man, thats bad news for your recon...)

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I absolutely loved this game series when it first came out. I also have the re-released new version and the only hardship I find in playing it is the lack of an edge scrolling map and having to deal with the now antiquated and clunky interface that requires using scroll bars. Otherwise it's still very much a gem.

Edge scrolling map? I have zero problems playing this game..maybe it is something I can help you with.

Thanks for the post. One of my favorite games.

Yes, edge scrolling, meaning that you scroll the map by putting your mouse cursor on the edge of the screen. Most newer games have that feature. games from the era when these were developed require the use of scroll bars to move the map view, or keeping a small "jump map" window open to click on a new location for moving the map. I find either of them less desirable and "clunkier" than the simplicity of edge scrolling.

Like I said though, the entire series is still a real gem of a game. I particularly enjoy the campaigns that require you to move from scenario to scenario with whatever survived the last scenario and some limited replacements in between.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I absolutely loved this game series when it first came out. I also have the re-released new version and the only hardship I find in playing it is the lack of an edge scrolling map and having to deal with the now antiquated and clunky interface that requires using scroll bars. Otherwise it's still very much a gem.

Edge scrolling map? I have zero problems playing this game..maybe it is something I can help you with.

Thanks for the post. One of my favorite games.

Yes, edge scrolling, meaning that you scroll the map by putting your mouse cursor on the edge of the screen. Most newer games have that feature. games from the era when these were developed require the use of scroll bars to move the map view, or keeping a small "jump map" window open to click on a new location for moving the map. I find either of them less desirable and "clunkier" than the simplicity of edge scrolling.

Like I said though, the entire series is still a real gem of a game. I particularly enjoy the campaigns that require you to move from scenario to scenario with whatever survived the last scenario and some limited replacements in between.

This game allows you to do that...you scroll to the edge of the map with your cursor and the map keeps rolling..no scroll bar. Never has been.

[jeffk3510]

Keep in mind Marc only has internet at work, and we can only get one turn a day in, other wise would crank out turns. Turns in this game can go rather quickly, especially in a small scenario. It isn't uncommon to sit down and complete a small 20 turn scenario in a couple of hours.