Another Great Man Gone

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Seriously? There is nothing I could see to suggest the slime that did this were anything other than homegrown American. Why blame this on "3rd World" immigrants and their "mannerisms"? That's a real sweeping generalisation don't you think?

It doesn't matter whether we are talking about the US, the UK or any other 1st world nation - they are all capable of generating their own scumbags without any outside help.

Very true. This has absolutely NO geopolitical implications. This, like the death of the Australian student in Oklahoma, is nothing more than the loss of America's soul. I grieve. Oh, I grieve. But there's nothing that can be done, so I'm running. Going to Chile. Hope theso of you left behind can do something, but doudt it. Good luck.

[Sieppo]

Whatever happened, how on earth can you say somebody is bad or good depending on they were forced to attend in a war? It does absolutely make no sense at all, however tragic it is. This is one thing I continue to wonder in men. If I were forced to do war, it would in no way make me a saint, just unlucky. War is always poor mostly young people dying for older people deciding to continue their failed politics/financial goals.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Whatever happened, how on earth can you say somebody is bad or good depending on they were forced to attend in a war? It does absolutely make no sense at all, however tragic it is. This is one thing I continue to wonder in men. If I were forced to do war, it would in no way make me a saint, just unlucky. War is always poor mostly young people dying for older people deciding to continue their failed politics/financial goals.

Have a look at the article. It sounds like this guy had done a lot of kind things for people in his life and was generally regarded as a fine person willing to really help people in need around him. I think this is what people are responding to.

[LST Express]

Old people sometimes make easy targets for bad people.

[CaptDave]

I'm opposed to capital punishment, partly because of the number of times the wrong person has been convicted but mostly because I think the criminal is getting off easy that way. Let him spend time in prison with others of his ilk!

My ideal punishment for animals like this is to reopen Alcatraz, leave it with no staff, and airdrop food twice a day. Let the people there sort it out amongst themselves!

[CaptBeefheart]

Finland might be different, but in the U.S. most people have a lot of respect for veterans, since we know they have risked everything for our freedom, regardless of whether they were forced to do it or not. This gentlemen has earned our respect and the people of this community are grateful for his service. The stories about his life only reinforce the fact that he was a good man. The manner of his death is extremely vile and my hope is justice is swift and certain. Also, it would be nice for parents to take some responsibility for their offspring at some point.

Regards,
CC

[Sieppo]

How can you say "risk" when there is no choice to do it or go to prison or even be executed in some places? As I said, HAVING to go to a war abroad does not make anyone great or a saint, as they had no other choice. Volunteers are different but I would say they mostly don't understand the reality of war. Then again there are people who really defend their homeland and families (Finland has a history with this agains Russia in WW2, Korea also against China etc), unlike the US usually, where their freedom is defended on the other side of the globe (usually nowadays where oil resides and of a result freedoms of US citizens are taken away, not added). A volunteer in such a war I really would respect but not automatically label as a great human being. Conscripts really have no other choice and this does not make them this or that - the only feeling for them I have is sadness for them being forced put their lives on the line because of decisions of other people that do not do the fighting. This is just common sense.

People who have lived a great life otherwise are another subject and if this was the case here, horrible case anyway, it's really sad.

[Canoerebel]

I wonder what it is that entices some people to squat and take a dump on the nice sentiments expressed by another? We can nitpick and parse and argue endlessly almost any statement made, but why? Here, the OP was simply trying his best to express outrage and sadness over the death of a WWII veteran. In respect for what he's trying to say, we can add our own comment or, if for some reason we are irked and irritated, we can just move along. But, seriously, why choose a genuinely expressed kindness to prompt us to take a public dump?

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Whatever happened, how on earth can you say somebody is bad or good depending on they were forced to attend in a war? It does absolutely make no sense at all, however tragic it is. This is one thing I continue to wonder in men. If I were forced to do war, it would in no way make me a saint, just unlucky. War is always poor mostly young people dying for older people deciding to continue their failed politics/financial goals.

Sometimes true, but in this case it was WW II and we were fighting to bring down global aggression, tyranny, and mass murder. Of course, Finland was on the other side..., so maybe you see it differently. [8|]

[t001001001]

Too bad he didn't arm himself and shoot both of them.

And to ppl in this thread to say he was just a conscript and maybe not even a decent guy? Seriously?

[Sieppo]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Whatever happened, how on earth can you say somebody is bad or good depending on they were forced to attend in a war? It does absolutely make no sense at all, however tragic it is. This is one thing I continue to wonder in men. If I were forced to do war, it would in no way make me a saint, just unlucky. War is always poor mostly young people dying for older people deciding to continue their failed politics/financial goals.

Sometimes true, but in this case it was WW II and we were fighting to bring down global aggression, tyranny, and mass murder. Of course, Finland was on the other side..., so maybe you see it differently. [8|]

It's a good subject. It's REALLY REALLY hard for Finnish people to admit they were the allies of Germans.. Some even advocated a greater Finland to the Urals .. Of course they broke the alliance once it was obvious, the Nazis were going to lose - a valiant back stab. It's kind of a hush hush subject here and many people really think it just was a way to retaliate the winter war to the soviets and take back lost land - and maybe it was for many. Many did not want to go further than were the borders before the winter war. But it's still a good example of people wanting to believe they and their ancestors are always the "good ones".

EDIT: so Finland actually had TWO wars in WW2, a great defensive battle against the huge Soviet Union the "Winter War", that many think Finland won and Finland had all the western countries behind it and even helping it. AND then the second retaliatory one with Germany the "Continuation War", an attack to regain the lost lands or even more. Many are very proud of the Winter War and want to think the second one was the same.

[KenchiSulla]

Edited because it was adding fuel to the fire (not intended that way)

[Canoerebel]

Yes, let's pick apart the OP. [8|]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Nobody deserves to die like that.. I understand why the OP started this thread the way he did but I think it is irrelevant if the man was a veteran or not.. If he was a 26 year old Carpenter I would have been equally disgusted.

warspite1

Of course its relevant - this is a wargaming site. No one is saying the hideousness of the crime is greater because the victim was a WWII vet.

But for goodness sake, the OP would probably not have posted the link if the poor victim had not had a military background.

I do not understand why such an innocent initial post went tits up so quickly.

So for the sake of the few that cannot seem to understand:

- It was a hideous crime against an elderly, vulnerable member of the community
- The crime was relevant to this forum, because the victim was a WWII vet
- And yes, the fact he fought, regardless of whether he was a volunteer, or drafted or whatever IS irrelevant. Delbert Belton fought and suffered injury fighting for his country, for our freedom. Yes for the avoidance of doubt - that makes him a hero.

[KenchiSulla]

Warspite, never mind my post. Sad to see the man murdered.

Would appreciate you toning down the last part of your (- It was a hideous crime against an elderly, vulnerable member of the community ) post a bit. I understand it was a hideous crime. Let's not pretent that is part of the discussion..

[Cap Mandrake]

Almost all cultures offer extra respect for the elderly. Quite natural. That's why this crime is so shocking and troubling. It suggests a coarsening of society.

If he served his duty honorably, drafted or not, he deserves our respect.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Whatever happened, how on earth can you say somebody is bad or good depending on they were forced to attend in a war? It does absolutely make no sense at all, however tragic it is. This is one thing I continue to wonder in men. If I were forced to do war, it would in no way make me a saint, just unlucky. War is always poor mostly young people dying for older people deciding to continue their failed politics/financial goals.

Sometimes true, but in this case it was WW II and we were fighting to bring down global aggression, tyranny, and mass murder. Of course, Finland was on the other side..., so maybe you see it differently. [8|]

It's a good subject. It's REALLY REALLY hard for Finnish people to admit they were the allies of Germans.. Some even advocated a greater Finland to the Urals .. Of course they broke the alliance once it was obvious, the Nazis were going to lose - a valiant back stab. It's kind of a hush hush subject here and many people really think it just was a way to retaliate the winter war to the soviets and take back lost land - and maybe it was for many. Many did not want to go further than were the borders before the winter war. But it's still a good example of people wanting to believe they and their ancestors are always the "good ones".

EDIT: so Finland actually had TWO wars in WW2, a great defensive battle against the huge Soviet Union the "Winter War", that many think Finland won and Finland had all the western countries behind it and even helping it. AND then the second retaliatory one with Germany the "Continuation War", an attack to regain the lost lands or even more. Many are very proud of the Winter War and want to think the second one was the same.

Jesus Christ stop that.
An old man was beaten to death ! Thats a tragedy.
He served his country during WW2 which is a BIG thing.
Be nice, people are just expressing their sadness over what happened and are a bit angry. Is that so hard to understand ?

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Nobody deserves to die like that.. I understand why the OP started this thread the way he did but I think it is irrelevant if the man was a veteran or not.. If he was a 26 year old Carpenter I would have been equally disgusted.

warspite1

Of course its relevant - this is a wargaming site. No one is saying the hideousness of the crime is greater because the victim was a WWII vet.

But for goodness sake, the OP would probably not have posted the link if the poor victim had not had a military background.

I do not understand why such an innocent initial post went tits up so quickly.

So for the sake of the few that cannot seem to understand:

- It was a hideous crime against an elderly, vulnerable member of the community
- The crime was relevant to this forum, because the victim was a WWII vet
- And yes, the fact he fought, regardless of whether he was a volunteer, or drafted or whatever IS irrelevant. Delbert Belton fought and suffered injury fighting for his country, for our freedom. Yes for the avoidance of doubt - that makes him a hero.

+1, sir.

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1





Sometimes true, but in this case it was WW II and we were fighting to bring down global aggression, tyranny, and mass murder. Of course, Finland was on the other side..., so maybe you see it differently. [8|]

It's a good subject. It's REALLY REALLY hard for Finnish people to admit they were the allies of Germans.. Some even advocated a greater Finland to the Urals .. Of course they broke the alliance once it was obvious, the Nazis were going to lose - a valiant back stab. It's kind of a hush hush subject here and many people really think it just was a way to retaliate the winter war to the soviets and take back lost land - and maybe it was for many. Many did not want to go further than were the borders before the winter war. But it's still a good example of people wanting to believe they and their ancestors are always the "good ones".

EDIT: so Finland actually had TWO wars in WW2, a great defensive battle against the huge Soviet Union the "Winter War", that many think Finland won and Finland had all the western countries behind it and even helping it. AND then the second retaliatory one with Germany the "Continuation War", an attack to regain the lost lands or even more. Many are very proud of the Winter War and want to think the second one was the same.

Jesus Christ stop that.
An old man was beaten to death ! Thats a tragedy.
He served his country during WW2 which is a BIG thing.
Be nice, people are just expressing their sadness over what happened and are a bit angry. Is that so hard to understand ?

I wish they'd keep certain prejudices out of their angry statements, but I do understand the anger.