Trade Frustration

[Darkspire]

Thinking out loud: If transports only carry 'minute' amounts, then it makes no sense to build freighters with large cargo capacities. Perhaps designing cargo haulers all with tiny cargo holds and fast loading, turning, and speed might help. Expensive, but perhaps not as expensive as many [more cargo like] haulers running with almost no cargo? Anyone tried this?

I manually design the private fleet (due to the lack of insight in the new design templates that you can not specify which type of fuel to use in a design), they all have ten engines, 5 thrusters and 5 (S), 10 (M) and 15 (L) cargo holds on the freighters. I also have 12 24 and 36 docking bays on the spaceports, can not say why due to the NDA for Shadows, but those extra docking bays do help to get cargo through, yet again it is all down to knowing the tech tree and how to juggle it to get the best out with the minimum in so that you serve both the state and private fleet with the best equipment and still have room for defense and attack tech.

Darkspire

[elanaagain]

@darkspire I play almost totally on manual, and have from the beginning of the franchise. I'm retired, so quick hand-eye, mouse click-fests don't work for me - turn based are wonderful. DW is a wonderful mix, and shadows a welcome add on (although I hate playing a pirate so i don't). With DW I can pause and implement orders at will. Love it. I understand your design approach and actually use something very similar. The one difference is that I take small freight / transports and give them faster speed and much greater range. Question: Have you found your 15 cargo holds on a large freighter (with 10 engines and 5 thrusters) run mostly almost full, or are they mostly empty?

[Darkspire]

Think you may need to look at this from the programmers point of view to get an answer, so first off yes, I have noticed it and it has been reported regarding the merchants running with small amounts. Back to a possible explanation for this somewhat odd behavior, lets say you have 50 colonies, 10 of those colonies have shortages of a resource, so the AI adds up the total amount and then divides that by the amount of available freighters and thus if you have 10 freighters with a shortage of 50 then they would be carrying an amount of 5 each, if the amount for each freighter goes over a certain amount then the next size of freighter would be used, for example, if a small freighter has a limit of 5, medium 10 and large 15 then if a shortage for 10 freighters to move is 80 then that would equal 8 and would be to big for a small so a medium would be used instead, not saying this is the case but from what I have seen with the shortage amounts in the Expansion Planner and then had a look at the amounts freighters are carrying it does make a kind of sense, it has to be a similar kind of logic used for the movement and distribution of resources as DW has a hell of a lot of computations going on under the hood and this sort of routine is a general one and would not require each and every freighter to be assigned an amount thus slowing down the processing. You should also take into account that when you enter the Expansion Planner to check the cargo holds the game pauses, they are not updated and sometimes the amounts on there are not showing the correct amounts.

Darkspire

[Canute0]

I have noticed it and it has been reported regarding the merchants running with small amounts.

Do you think this is a new issue ? No i allready reported that 2 years ago. The Devs made a patch that the freighter wait a bit longer for cargo. But that didn't realy solve the problem.
DW just need a complete overhaul design at the Cargo distribution.
At moment it looks like DW got a "just in time" cargo managment, that mean a colony/base need a resource to finish a project it order the amount at the next colony/base along their traderoute (the reserved amounts with your Empire sign at the cargo).
There must be a distribution for resources with large stocks too, but i didn't notice that much.

But DW isn't an economic game, that is part of the AI. The Player got problems with that, and the AI empire's got the same problems. But the player can live with the problem much better if he know about it, then the AI empire who just act like his script say.
Maybe at the next expansion or DW2, they add a new game mode Play as Tycoon and control the whole Private sector for an AI controled Empire.

[elanaagain]

A poster above suggested only building one spaceport per system. So, if you don't build a second spaceport at the secondary colony (colonized planet/moon) in a system, how do you get the resources of that colony into play? Mining stations dissapear when the colony is established...

[Canute0]

Colonies mine at their own, thats why mining station disappear, or you would get double resource output.
And ship allways can land/dock on a colony, a colony just got 1 or 2 docking bays and this would cause a traffic jam if that colony got much trade traffic.

But you allways should build a spaceport at any colony just to have the medical and recreation bonus, that increase the happyniss. Happy people grow faster or you can raise the tax more.

[CyclopsSlayer]

OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY.

I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design.

AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr....

[sbach2o]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
I am reading that like you have found a way to make a constructor pick its construction materials from a specific spaceport? If that is true, I am stumped. In my experience, all constructors will always pick up their materials from the spaceport closest to the construction site. Here's one instance of the game trying to optimize for trip distance where it is absolutely useless.

There is no need for fake-orders and dirty tricks. For simplicity let's say it's early game. I move Constructors to my homeworld. Then I command them to build a structure and they take resources from the homeworld. When finished building I move them back to my homeworld.

Ermmm... I am almost sure it doesn't work this way. Like I am hinting at in my original post, I have seen a constructor I had manually moved to my homeworld going to the (hopelessly understocked) spaceport closest to the construction site to pick up materials. Note, I only let things like this happen once, so I didn't try again. Except, I didn't know about the merits of fake orders for a long time, so I could (less attentively) watch my constructors failing over and over.

Should I try again? Or is there a trick about how close a constructor must be to a given planet for it to choose that for materials?

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Canute

Colonies mine at their own, thats why mining station disappear, or you would get double resource output.
And ship allways can land/dock on a colony, a colony just got 1 or 2 docking bays and this would cause a traffic jam if that colony got much trade traffic.

Colonies have a whole lot of docking bays these days (20?) so traffic jams are not a problem in these situations. The benefit of the recreation and medical modules remain.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: sbach2o

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
I am reading that like you have found a way to make a constructor pick its construction materials from a specific spaceport? If that is true, I am stumped. In my experience, all constructors will always pick up their materials from the spaceport closest to the construction site. Here's one instance of the game trying to optimize for trip distance where it is absolutely useless.

There is no need for fake-orders and dirty tricks. For simplicity let's say it's early game. I move Constructors to my homeworld. Then I command them to build a structure and they take resources from the homeworld. When finished building I move them back to my homeworld.

Ermmm... I am almost sure it doesn't work this way. Like I am hinting at in my original post, I have seen a constructor I had manually moved to my homeworld going to the (hopelessly understocked) spaceport closest to the construction site to pick up materials. Note, I only let things like this happen once, so I didn't try again. Except, I didn't know about the merits of fake orders for a long time, so I could (less attentively) watch my constructors failing over and over.

Should I try again? Or is there a trick about how close a constructor must be to a given planet for it to choose that for materials?

Yes try again sback2o as I play every early/mid game this way and I can't recall seeing the behaviour you described. Make sure your constructors are set to manual control and note I only give me them a command to build when they arrive at the homeworld / key world.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer
OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY.

I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design.

AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr....

I completely agree the Private economy could be vastly improved.

That said, I've long ago made peace that the Private economy is amazingly slow.

What happens as further time goes by CyclopsSlayer?

And BTW best to turn off those advisors, they should be fired!

[Darkspire]

And BTW and tur those advisors CylopsSlayer!

Sublight communication breakdown captain [:D]

Those advisers should most assuredly be turned off, even better show them the airlock

Darkspire

[Icemania]

Fair crack of the old whip Darkspire! [;)]

Fixed 3 minutes and 22 seconds before your post ... keep up! [8D]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY.

I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design.

AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr....

Things to remember:

1. Every starport requires a certain amount of resources. The more starports you have, the more strain on your transports. My latest game has 40 colonies and 1 large starport at my capital, no other starports at all...and no resource shortages. Any abandoned star ports I acquire are retired to prevent problems. Once I am certain I have enough resources stockpiled and enough mines/freighters to keep up with demand, I will build a second starport.

2. Every starport will put resources in reserve that can not be moved. Obviously the more starports, the more reserve and the less you have to distribute to other places. In times of 'shortage' the starports will always have priority, so they get their shortages filled before anything else, and causes delays in other bases/planets.

3. Every time you upgrade mines, they require resources. Keep mine upgrades to a minimum if you do not want to have shortages due to that. Mines are low on the delivery priority list, so every time you upgrade it may take a while to get them all done.

4. The two most important resources you need are caslon and hydrogen (since they are your fuel sources)...followed by gold, lead, steel, iridium, chromium and carbon fibre (by my estimates). With Caslon and hydrogen being fuels, you can see you have need for very large stockpiles of them. The first thing I do in a game is order 4 gas mining stations to get caslon and hydrogen stockpiles started.

5. If you do run into a shortage, you get behind all around as the freighters attempt to fix shortage one and lower the priority of other needs. Its always best if you can prevent shortages in the first place.

6. The most important principle of all this: DO NOT EXPAND TOO QUICKLY! I cannot emphasize this enough, do not grow your empire faster than your economy can deal with. Each expansion brings in new planets needing resources, each new starport requires resources, each new base of any type requires resources, and all that requires more freighters...which have to be built before they can start transporting. You need mines before you need new colonies, starports, and defense bases, period.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Fair crack of the old whip Darkspire! [;)]

Fixed 3 minutes and 22 seconds before your post ... keep up! [8D]

It just reminded me of a broken comms in Star Trek TOS, In my defense you sneaked in all ninja like and did the edit as I was playing with the GIF's on the other screen [:D]

Darkspire

[CyclopsSlayer]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

OK, the Trade AI needs to be fixed and improved BADLY.

I have 20 Chromium sources in operation. I have 620K Chromium stockpiled. I have ~300 Freighters in operation, all modified to the same 10 Bay design.

AND! Not even a single unit of Chromium in transit after 6 game months of bases/worlds all screaming for Chromium. And the Advisers want to run smuggling missions for Chromium?!? What the bloody hell are the Freighters and Stockpile for if the Private Sector and Advisers are too damn stupid to use them? Grrrrr....

Things to remember:

1. Every starport requires a certain amount of resources. ...
2. Every starport will put resources in reserve that can not be moved. ...

3. Every time you upgrade mines, they require resources. Keep mine upgrades to a minimum if you do not want to have shortages due to that. Mines are low on the delivery ...

4. The two most important resources you need are caslon and hydrogen (since they are your fuel sources)...

5. If you do run into a shortage, you get behind all around as the freighters attempt to fix shortage one and lower the priority of other needs. Its always best if you can prevent shortages in the first place.

6. The most important principle of all this: ...

I understand that, I guess my point, minus the rage, is that an error message for lack of a resource there is plenty of on hand, should require at least a small amount of the resource in transit.

I watched as closely as I could

0 Date - Did a global refit that involved many systems, improved Torps, Reactors, Engines, Shields, a few other things.

~6 months later - 20 Chromium Source in play, 620 K Chromium on hand, MANY Chromium shortage messages. NO Chromium in transit. Advisers request Chromium smuggling mission.

~1 year - Still 20 Chromium Sources in play, stockpile at 696K, all Chromium Shortage messages still in play, 0.3K Chromium in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling.

~15 months - 19 Chromium Sources in play (one played out) increased mineral extraction rates, stockpile 724K. all Chromium shortages still in play, 1.2K in transit. Advisers still requesting Chromium smuggling.

~19 months - 19 sources, 760K stockpile, 15K Chromium in transit, demand finally being met. Advisers still requesting smuggling.


My issue is, why would the game AI prefer to pay an enemy to smuggle a Resource that is currently abundant and available, only needing to be shipped. And at the same time refuse to ship a needed resource itself for more than a year and a half game time???

Seriously, if current naval merchant fleets handled resources in an fashion even remotely close to that, they'd be long out of business or shot for treason.

[Darkspire]

Ahh, this rings a bell or three [:)]

What is the race your playing? What is the default homeworld for that race? If they do not have Chromium on that type of homeworld then that may be the problem, I had similar problems a few years ago when I started playing DW, my problem was I was listening to the adviser and building as he directed and that my race were volcanic, sometimes Chromium can be generated very thinly and if your race does not have it on there default homeworld type then it can lead to shortages, even if you have a stock of it it just does not seem to get passed around. You have to have a search on the Galaxy Map and find where it is densest and then seed that area with mines and a few spaceports and make sure there is a good link of spaceports back to your empire from the Chromium area.

Darkspire

[CyclopsSlayer]

I was Akdarian with an Ocean homeworld. No Chromium in my home system, but several nearby planets, moons, and asteroids had it in plenty.

[elanaagain]

Lets try again: IF a system has TWO colonies, and you follow the advice above to ONLY BUILD ONE Spaceport per system, THEN your secondary colony has no space port. In this specific situation, how do you get the resources from the secondary colony into your economy?

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: elanaagain

Lets try again: IF a system has TWO colonies, and you follow the advice above to ONLY BUILD ONE Spaceport per system, THEN your secondary colony has no space port. In this specific situation, how do you get the resources from the secondary colony into your economy?

The idea of a spaceport per system is that the freighters in that system will move resources to the spaceport, having more than one per system is overkill and will kill your income, even on larger even on larger empires.

So to reiterate, each colony will bring into existence new freighters, those freighters will move the resources from the colony without a spaceport to the colony with the spaceport in the system, the constructors will then get there requirements from the spaceport if needed. Look at the spaceport like a plughole, all the resources will flow into it from within the system, be it a mine, gas mine or colony, a collection point as it were.

Darkspire