Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?

Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?

Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!

To be clear, I mean no insult or snark. Just an up-front clarification. Obvert had said at the end of the Jocke game that he has come around to the idea of playing for VPs and the pressure that puts on the moves.

[GreyJoy]

Jan 42? Sure, but for Jan 1942 the KB may have already helped secured most of the early pacific gains and then be able to get back to Japan and ready for a next push.
At the same time the KB hunting in the pacific means the allies must keep their assets hidden...

Not an easy choice obviously... I agree, however, that the allied subs aren't much of a threat in 1942...and they arrive in so big numbers later on that 27 subs won't make any difference...imho

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Good luck.

Are the both of you playing for overt VPs and is auto-vic on the table? Or is this a "for the journey" game?

Didn't talk about it yet...will do asap!

To be clear, I mean no insult or snark. Just an up-front clarification. Obvert had said at the end of the Jocke game that he has come around to the idea of playing for VPs and the pressure that puts on the moves.

Yes yes, don't worry BW! I got it!
Don't really know if i like the idea of playing ONLY for VPs... racing for an autovictory may easily destroy my japanese plans for mid and late war...
We'll talk about it![;)]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.

I advocate a Kaga split as well for ahistorical starts. It just makes sense.

[Mac Linehan]

Grey Joy -

Count me in, this will be a good one. I expect to see the fur fly... <grin>

Obvert is an experienced player; I will learn much from your AAR.

Mac

[Quixote]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

Cannonfodder is giving you very good advice here. As to advancing anywhere in the Pacific (Wake, Tarawa, and Rabaul, per your examples), if you commit to these early with your bonus-move TFs (easy to do since you won't need them in the DEI given the starting position of the KB) you can take all three of these locations easily within the first week of play without the Allies being able to hinder you. Granted you only have a limited number of bonus-move TFs on turn one, but you do have more than enough of them if choose your locations wisely...

[EHansen]

You may not have as many other means to counter the Allied subs as you expect. You will have a number of IJA bomber units restricted to Ki-51 and Ki-51b for the entire war.
They have limited range and limited bomb load. You should expect your airborne ASW to be much weaker than your other games.

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
With PDU OFF only 4x42 Sentais can upgrade to mr.Tojo...and only 1 to KI-44a...which means that at best you're gonna have 160 Tojos (a, b and c) only by dec 1942 (if you heavily research the Tojo line so to have both the b and c version).

Hi, this will be your IJA front-line until Ki-61-Ia (68th and 78th Sentais can be equipped with
Tony) and Ki-43-IIb arrives...it means that you can fight only with this models for all the '42:

[koniu]

Accelerating Carriers.

You will have problems with air groups that arrive with accelerated carriers.
Most of them arrive with A6M5b/c, B6N1/2 and D4Y models. You must be aware that You can stuck with groups that can fly models that will enter production in the future. So in extreme cases it can be months before unit can take replacements.

It is not passable to downgrade model with PDU OFF. Right?

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: koniu
It is not passable to downgrade model with PDU OFF. Right?

Right.

[Barb]

Interesting. I am looking forward to this AAR. With PDU OFF it will be hard for Japs, yet not so easy for the allies, as they simply cannot swap planes from one unit to the another... And most of the allied squadrons would have P-40s/Hurricanes (Oscars are not that bad against them in a right position).

For limited air units in place I expect you to use Oscars/Tojos for sweeps and Nates for escorts (they are nimble and will avoid a number of attacks).

[veji1]

I quite like PDU off. With stacking limits and PDU on, a competent japanese player can really build a great defense in 43/44 and I can of dislike seeing the japanese able to sweep the allies to death in late 44. It just shouldn't be, and I am more of a JFB... PDU off should help balance things out a bit. What I would really like to see would be a bit of a composite model, where PDU is possible but limited in numbers and very very very costly in PP. So sure you could turn 5 IJN daitais into Georges, but each of them is going to set you back many PPs you can't use to get divisions from China or good leaders. In such a "extremely costly PDU" set up, you would see Japanese players spending some on geting more quality IJN and IJA fighters in the air, but not too much.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

Don't forget the Nick. A decent fighter in 1942. At least one Lilly squadron upgrades to Nick, and two or three fighter squadrons.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If I was to play the Japanese now I would consider skipping the PH attack. Best case you sink a couple of obsolete battleships while leaving your carriers in an area where they can't support the critical advance into the DEI, Burma and perhaps India/Oz... Consider this

Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.

My opinion is that some house rules twist the strategic decisions on the employment of the KB on turn 1. Manila is in range of Japanese LBA. The only reason most use to strike the Port with the KB is one port strike on the first turn house rule. I play both sides, and never restrict port attacks, but also allow the Allied player to set the PI squadrons to CAP consistent with the Brit squadrons in Malayasia (30-40%). This accounts for the warning the Pearl Attack gives the MacArthur's Air Force before dawn on 8 Dec, but the first turn surprise rule accounts for the Allies significant underestimation of Japanese aircraft range. If I attack the port at Manila with LBA from Formosa, I tend to get very reasonable results. I lose a number of Japanese aircraft and crews as a penalty for not suppressing the airfields first, but damage and sink an number of ships and subs. The only issue I find is the high experience Nell and Beatty crews tend to carry the wrong load-out for the target, carrying the BB killer single large bomb instead of a more appropriate 4 X 250KG load. This is a minor game engine flaw.

For those who argue against this, I would note that only a single Asiatic Fleet submarine in port at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor responded by putting to sea before dawn broke over the Philippines. This situation did not change throughout the day as the weather cleared over Formosa and the Japanese began striking the airfields on the PI. It took a while for the true scale of the risk the Asiatic Fleet was in to become clear.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: koniu

Accelerating Carriers.

You will have problems with air groups that arrive with accelerated carriers.
Most of them arrive with A6M5b/c, B6N1/2 and D4Y models. You must be aware that You can stuck with groups that can fly models that will enter production in the future. So in extreme cases it can be months before unit can take replacements.

It is not passable to downgrade model with PDU OFF. Right?

This is a very real issue; however, it can be largely mitigated with modest expansions of the A6M and D4Y research lines and ensuring you maintain 500+ engines in the relevant pools as early as possible. To my view, you will need a modest sized, broad based research approach with a larger initial investment in engine research and factory expansion to get the most out of your airforces.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: EHansen

You may not have as many other means to counter the Allied subs as you expect. You will have a number of IJA bomber units restricted to Ki-51 and Ki-51b for the entire war.
They have limited range and limited bomb load. You should expect your airborne ASW to be much weaker than your other games.

Agree. I think you will need to rely more on search to suppress.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy



Also thinking about that.
However the KB in the DEI is a double edged sword.
Without the KB, i cannot advance anywhere in the pacific...not even Wake, Tarawa or Rabaul...let alone PM.

Also, from my tests, an attack against Manila isn't that usefull... those subs can be nasty, but Japan has other means to counter them...

The usual PH attack hurt the allied airforce, keep the repair yards busy for years and may also damage or sink some precious cruisers.

I'm leaning towards what i did against QBall...Kaga in the DEI and the KB against PH, so having enough assets to support both a pacific and a DEI advance.

But i wanna test a bit more....

Having just been on the receiving end of a Manila strike only I can offer some input. Of 27 submarines at Manila all were sunk. KB then disappeared and did not support further operations in the DEI. CV Kaga and all the CVL/CVE's are enough to support operations in the DEI. Factor in the Betty/Nell threat once based in the DEI and there is little need to add KB. KB is certainly capable of taking out the submarine threat at Manila and still be available for operations in the Central or Southeast Pacific as early as January 42, even sooner if needed. Is it better to take out the submarine threat rather than damage as much of the American surface force at Pearl Harbor? I don't know. Personally I like having the fleet intact and providing I don't squander the surface assets they may have a far reaching impact. Do I miss the submarines? Sure, but we all know how ineffective they are for all of 1942 and the number of reinforcements is substantial. Time will tell.

My opinion is that some house rules twist the strategic decisions on the employment of the KB on turn 1. Manila is in range of Japanese LBA. The only reason most use to strike the Port with the KB is one port strike on the first turn house rule. I play both sides, and never restrict port attacks, but also allow the Allied player to set the PI squadrons to CAP consistent with the Brit squadrons in Malayasia (30-40%). This accounts for the warning the Pearl Attack gives the MacArthur's Air Force before dawn on 8 Dec, but the first turn surprise rule accounts for the Allies significant underestimation of Japanese aircraft range. If I attack the port at Manila with LBA from Formosa, I tend to get very reasonable results. I lose a number of Japanese aircraft and crews as a penalty for not suppressing the airfields first, but damage and sink an number of ships and subs. The only issue I find is the high experience Nell and Beatty crews tend to carry the wrong load-out for the target, carrying the BB killer single large bomb instead of a more appropriate 4 X 250KG load. This is a minor game engine flaw.

For those who argue against this, I would note that only a single Asiatic Fleet submarine in port at the time of the attack on Pearl Harbor responded by putting to sea before dawn broke over the Philippines. This situation did not change throughout the day as the weather cleared over Formosa and the Japanese began striking the airfields on the PI. It took a while for the true scale of the risk the Asiatic Fleet was in to become clear.

Regarding the effectiveness of CAP over Manila, et al, then do you play with first turn surprise = off?