Things that need balancing

[Nanaki]

I happen to disagree. Having a few races with a ton of interesting/powerful gameplay mechanics while the rest get scraps or absolutly nothing at all does not make for interesting races, good roleplaying or gameplay. Note that a lot of my problems with the DW races stems not only from a balance POV, but a variety one as well.

[LoBaron]

You happen to disagree because you are trying to defend your own point instead of making an attempt to understand where my issue lies with the OP.

His posts suggest removing or minimizing the power delta from the various races, which is evident from his posts. This is what I oppose, as I do not think that the power balance between the races is the root cause for the problem.

You instead want an incentive for the player to play all races, which is a valid goal, but depending on the tools available does not neccesarily require the races to be equally powerful. I also think the goal might be reachable - not perfectly so, but at least for a bigger part of the races as it is currently.

But I also believe that the root cause of the problem is much more simple than it looks in the first place. The game simply has not enough variables to characteristically distinguish races in relation to the number of races. The simple solution would be to reduce the number of races (some Star Trek mods do this quite nicely btw..), the complicated solution would be to increase the number of variables.

[Nanaki]

From personal experiance, removing races from an existing franchise tends to not go over well. Also there are a lot more variables then you think. DW makes the odd mistake in having 2-3 races use almost the same variables, while a different variable is only used by one race at all. Theres also different mixtures of variables, and all the different combinations of those have not been exhausted.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Nanaki
From personal experiance, removing races from an existing franchise tends to not go over well.

That sentence is useless.

I don´t know what your personal experience is, 'removing races from an existing franchis' happens all the time as soon as a player starts a new game restricted to 4-8 races, or one of the better modders out here design a scenario, and 'go over well' could mean anything for anybody.

Also there are a lot more variables then you think.

Thats a pretty bold statement as you have not clue about what I estimate on the number of variables to be. Unless you are psychic that is...

My comment was in relation to the number of races, not absolute.

DW makes the odd mistake in having 2-3 races use almost the same variables, while a different variable is only used by one race at all. Theres also different mixtures of variables, and all the different combinations of those have not been exhausted.

I do not think it is an odd mistake, rather it is a method of emphasising similarities between certain species.

Besides that no need to repeat yourself. As I said, I am positive your ideas will yield some improvements to stock.


Anyways, I guess that debate lost momentum.

You already know what my opinion is - and are probably aware that you will not convince me otherwise, and I think I understand where you are coming from and that you will probably not bound to fully agree with my PoV, which is fine with me. Have a good day.

[Nanaki]

That sentence is useless.

I apologize for not being specific, I wanted to avoid another crapstorm that happened a few weeks ago. But if you want me to be specific: Master of Orion 3.

Thats a pretty bold statement as you have not clue about what I estimate on the number of variables to be. Unless you are psychic that is...

If you look in the Distant Worlds/Races file you will find dozens of variables.

[laughinglab_MatrixForum]

Planetary revolutions need a serious looking at. I had a planet with 2500k troop strength (mostly my own racial troops, playing as Haakonish) revolt and suddenly those massive troop formations now belong to my enemy. This is absolutely absurd and not the way revolutions work at all.

There should be loyalists, as well as turncoats, and racial ideologies should perhaps play a part as well (i.e. Haakonish racial troops being far less likely to switch sides, provided they are the primary race in the empire, due to their xenophobia and sense of superiority over other races).

[AKicebear]

Planetary revolutions need a serious looking at.

Ran into this problem in a recent invasion also - makes one wonder! Agree that in revolutions troops should align according to race or some similar metric - perhaps time on planet (with newly dropped troops more loyal to the empire).

[Werewolf13]

ORIGINAL: b_ace

I'm loving this game so far, but I think there are a few things that need balancing. Maybe this thread can be a thread for people to list what they think are imbalanced aspects of the game.

Races:

Quameno: The tech bonuses they get from their racial characteristics, government type, and ruler are just over the top. They are incredibly OP.

Gizurean: Over time, their permanent leader becomes a god. Probably not as OP as the Quameno, but they are up there.

Ketarov: The AI doesn't seem to utilize their bonuses very well; they seem pretty underpowered.

Atuuk: Seem to be a bit underpowered compared to other races.


Governments: Some types seem to be far, far superior to others. I can't ever imagine having a military dictatorship or corporate nationalist government. I think the autocratic governments all need to be overhauled. Democracy and Technocracy are clearly the best two types.

Balance sucks. It is boring. Where's the challenge if all is balanced?

The challenge exists in overcoming that which is not balanced, playing the race that is gimped and playing it to win and winning. Or maybe one doesn't win but plays it well enough that its still up and going strong after 50 years.

Or play the superior race with all its benefits and deciding to play to achieve victory in 10 years or 15 when by rights it should take 20 or 30 if played normally.

Or role play the race. Be reckless because that's a racial characteristic and do things your real temperament absolutely screams at you not to do - go ahead throw caution to the wind. Be friendly to that race you should hate because the race you're playing is uncommonly friendly or passive.

Those are things that make DW interesting. If everything is balanced you might as well break out excel and play it on a spreadsheet. BORING!!

[AKicebear]

If everything is balanced you might as well break out excel and play it on a spreadsheet. BORING!!

Wholly agree with this, and that pure balance isn't necessary nor desirable, especially since multi-player "fairness" isn't a consideration.

[Sirian]

Imbalance might be a fun thing for a human to play with, but in my opinion the AI doesn't handle them well, because - surprise! - they are unbalanced. When in 8 out of 10 ganes the Gizureans are the largest AI empire it becomes dull. I favor variety in my games and so would rather have a balanced set of computer controlled opponents.

[feelotraveller]

For me that is part of the flavour. Starting out with the Gizureans as next door neighbours is a totally different scenario than starting out next to the Shandar. That means I will have a very different (early to mid) game even if my race and all other settings are exactly the same.

[Nanaki]

I agree with him though, seeing the same 2 races (Quameno and Gizureans) becoming dominant in game after game after game is boring.

[Efaferal]

try selecting race victory conditions only. you might find the win percentages even out a bit better. Part of the challenge of a good strategy game is working within an asymmetry. Sure the Giz can occupy a ton of planets and conquer everyone, but can they do it before your atuuk can breed themselves to victory? Or be for the Securans the F**k their way to a 'tourist' income win?

[Blackstork]

Guys better don't complain but help to modders to see pinpoint really harsh imbalances if you see them. I for example working on long project which aims to rework characters completely and by this tweak the balance. I asked few times on observations ideas from community but people prefer to complain here thn to gather and provide own observations. Also this game should have balance, but it should be assymetric one.. Strict balance will be harmful here, races above all should have unique approach and gameplay., own challenge provided. Speaking of challenge-there always should be one.

[Kilravock]

ORIGINAL: feelotraveller

For me that is part of the flavour. Starting out with the Gizureans as next door neighbours is a totally different scenario than starting out next to the Shandar. That means I will have a very different (early to mid) game even if my race and all other settings are exactly the same.

Oh yeah, the difference in how the game turns out is night and day. I like to play as human and when I start near the bugs, my early to mid game is like Starship Troopers with the bug wars. If I start near peaceful races that like humans then it's peaceful building for the early game.

[Nanaki]

I already made a mod that, IMO, fixed the worst imbalances. It works fairly well. Quameno and Gizureans are still powerful but at least now you get a half dozen major powers instead of only two or three.