Battle of the Bifferno River

[Smirfy]

Thank you KWG, Im not sure why they would not, a 400 gun barrage was common place and they equate to basically the divisional artillery. Like I said 3 direct attachments did not fire, the SPA's and 4 attached regiments also did not fire but that still left over 400 guns.

That is my thinking also about prorities that definatly need looking at, it also make sense that the player has to decide which distance he will press his attack or hold his defence to. If he decides to hold or attack until 50 and fails the losses should reflect that compared to abandoning the fight at a greater distance.

I'm going to take the range down through the last couple of steps to infantry combat and then pause for a couple of observations before things get close range.

[Smirfy]

The Range closes to 250 and the 81 MM comes. like I have said mortars are the best weapon the Germans have so I can't qualify the results here until the final tally but the 36 tubes taking the 25pdrs as a yard stick are ten times more effective. Some odder stuff starts to occur from this point in.

[Smirfy]

This one strikes me as totally left field a dead heat at range 210 between my Lee-Enfield and satchel charged armed pioneer sections and the 17pdr anti tank guns.

[Smirfy]

At a range of 161 the 3 German 75 MM infantry guns open up. 520% or nearly 40 times more effective than the 358 25pdrs

[Smirfy]

The Brens are up next at 130 and wish they had not been, no discernable effect

[Smirfy]

At 110 range this one is simply WTF! The 2 motorcycle squads are not only more effective than their own 120MM and 81MM mortars they are 2500% or 185 times superior to the 358 25pdrs.

[Smirfy]

Wrapping up the ranged weapons comes the 88 at a range of 100(?) Now if these 3 guns knocked out 16 tanks I would not give it a second thought because thats what they do, except again off course why my artillery did not suppress them. But even the 88's cant compete with the much vaunted motorcyle squads.

[loki100]

Smirfy

I'll ask/suggest again.

Your claims/reports would be more credible with additional information. I've started looking at some of my battles in detail and I am seeing nothing like the problems you seem to be encountering.

So what would really help a total numpty like me would be information on morale, experience and fatigue of all your attackers. All those factors determine both intensity and effectiveness. Also supply and ammunition ... both of these will seriously reduce the intensity. Also your leadership chain, are you mixing units across commands (= loss of effectiveness), are you out of command range (= lot of loss of effectiveness).

The only way I think I could reproduce your results is by having one of that set of key variables really badly off the norm?

[Smirfy]

Maybe I did not make myself clear in the earlier posts I am in command range all my units are attached to the one corps who has about as good as a commander as one can get given the British pool. I could have picked anyone of 100 battles but this one serves the purpose quite well

56th Division, assigned are an SPA unit and Churchills,

[Smirfy]

That should be enough to deal with a regiment by itself btw without to much hassle and Corps artillery support but there are another 4 divisions along with it

[Smirfy]

The Combat odds suggest Im not doing too much wrong

[Smirfy]

Before the Battle

[Smirfy]

I dont claim anything I am just posting facts btw you know just like when units wernt teleporting you remember those wild claims.

[Smirfy]

The guns are now silent it is now an infantrymans battle the odds remember are 34.7 to 1

I now have the infantry from five divisions and an infantry tank brigade attached amongst them, the range is close now, thats the thing about elite formations that dont break they suffer huge casaulties though I would have expected a regiment in an outpost line to have retreated before now elite or not. Thats the thing people never seem to get form those "Waffen SS inferno in the hell cauldron of the Eastern front" books, how many men they actually lost because they stood and fought. As KWG states the game is crying out for priorities in attack and defence. This aint Cassino, it aint Caen the defender should just be bluffing me as to how much time and logistics I want to burn on a regiment only to watch him withdraw in good order. The old Atomic World at War and V for Victory games had a great system, their attacks and defences were graduated. The range is down to 72 now its conquer or die time.

[Smirfy]

First blood the FJ! at range 72. Cant tell if this is good or bad but it looks like at least they will take a few with them. You fully expect them to go down swinging relative to their strength (Not that there would be so many if artillery worked).

Now if artillery worked properly and disrupted a shed load of units you could even give them a saving throw before infantry combat begins based on their quality, fatigue etc to see how many recovered from the barrage, you could even give the barrage a random effect nature on its effectiveness instead of just not working.

Anyway the scores on the doors for Herman's finest

[Smirfy]

"Nows your time Maitland", "up guards and at them"

Okay so the results were underwelming to say the least at range 71, combat odds 34.1 to 1. My entire 1763 rifle sections that have Engineer, Tank, Air and artillery support are 1.7% effective. Do you get modified downwards for the full Monty? Lets repeat that the odds are 34.7 to 1 everything has been useless so far and now my infantry are 1.7% effective! That is to say the FJ were 553% effective.. I know they were good, one of the finest troops of WWII but they certaintly were not 550 times more effective than bog standard infantry backed by everything including the kitchen sink and there is only 32 of them! I believe the ratio of 3 to 1 was considered fine for attack. I have five divisions that is to say intrisically trained to operate as combined arms teams, one in the real world would have been sufficent.



Okay maybe my tanks will sort them out but before they do the Axis get to fire again.......................

[Smirfy]

Competition time now 17 German pioneer squads to fire next will they

A/ Have half the effect as the 32 FJ squads
B/ Have the Same effect as the 32 FJ squads
C/ Have 1.5 times the effect of 32 FJ squads
D/ Or exist within the Matrix

[RedLancer]

What terrain are you attacking into and what is the fortification level? Posting the results of individual ground elements has to be put in the wider context of morale, experience, leadership rolls, terrain type and fortification level as they influence the performance of those elements.

Numbers are not everything as the 100th Mountain Regt showed on the Gemmano Ridge. Douglas Orgill's book on the Gothic Line is a fine read on the issues facing those who choose to attack a prepared defense. I think Loki may be right you are missing some of the key factors and concentrating on numbers alone which does not guarantee success as the Somme showed.

[Smirfy]

I have taken pains to explain the situation regards terrain, weather the support, terrain and supply. Its all in the narrative if there is something that is not there certainly ask by all means I have not speciffically named the leader yet so Ill post him up now. The Battle of Germano was part of the Gothic Line and the unit in question was supported and attacked by a couple of brigades. Anyone can point exceptions I can tell you about a unit of Churchills that stormed position after position in Italy with little loss but in one day lost half those killed in the entire campaign. These are what is called exceptions. The British ceased using Somme tactics in 1917 were some nations have unity of command British doctrine has been described as unity of effort you have to imagine that when I array 5 divisions against a position they will not charge like Lemmings but use the Artillery, Air, Tank and Enginner support avialable to crack the target. I repeat did not attack with 2 or three brigades I attacked with a 5 divisions. The combat odds are 34.7 to 1, is this meaningless?


Tell you what post up a battle with the British to make sure Im jumping through all the hoops, you know one were artillery works so I know were I and anyone else as bemused as me knows were they are going wrong

[JocMeister]

You are putting a lot of effort into this. Wouldn´t it just be easier to send the devs a save and let them look at it?