Spanking of the Sheep! - Allied Surrender on T53

[JocMeister]

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[font="Verdana"]Turn 4. 23rd-29th June 1943[/font]
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Northern Europe
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A very good day. With big concentrations of German fighters in the North we act on impulse and throw both Bomber Command the 8th at the Ruhr for a daylight attack.

The 9th start hitting Port and Railyards in France. I avoid enemy flak and airbases as much as possible and losses are very light.

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Mediterranean
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Strategic AF shift targets from Sicily and hit two AFs on the boot being used by the RA. Enemy losses are horrendous and almost 500 planes are destroyed for about 200 Allied planes.

[JocMeister]

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[font="Verdana"]Turn 4. 23rd-29th July 1943[/font]
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Ground
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Still a lot to learn here. Thought the rest of the armor could catch up with the lead elements rushing for Messina...didn´t check movement points properly and now I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.

Trying to clear Sicily as fast as possible to gain control of the AFs. Messed up my prepping for the next invasion and will now be delayed for at least 4 weeks. Stupid. [:@]

[KWG]

July

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: KWG

July

Ooops! [:D]

[Seminole]

I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.

Probably not.
You're sitting in rough terrain and he likely only has the Schmalz PzG Bde in Messina with a routed and non-routed Italian sidekicks.
The ZOC movement costs to cut you off and attack would likely preclude getting back into Messina.
I bet he sits tight and waits for you to force him out.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Seminole

I have an armor ID exposed outside Messina. No doubt Pelton will trash them next turn.

Probably not.
You're sitting in rough terrain and he likely only has the Schmalz PzG Bde in Messina with a routed and non-routed Italian sidekicks.
The ZOC movement costs to cut you off and attack would likely preclude getting back into Messina.
I bet he sits tight and waits for you to force him out.

I'd go with this, he can't create a situation for a rout, pushing you back will cost him fatigue, so I'd suspect he'll sit tight.

More broadly think you are right to emphasis the mindset of caution and only moving when your air power can really support your ground operations. What is not clear is whether such a methodical approach may end up grinding the Germans down so you can cut loose or if its too conservative a strategy? But given the disasters in a few other AARs of taking chances and over-extending, think you have made the right choice.

[Seminole]

More broadly think you are right to emphasis the mindset of caution and only moving when your air power can really support your ground operations. What is not clear is whether such a methodical approach may end up grinding the Germans down so you can cut loose or if its too conservative a strategy? But given the disasters in a few other AARs of taking chances and over-extending, think you have made the right choice.

The lessons should be clear by now. Step out from under the umbrella of the WA AF and you will get burned.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: obvert

Having not played this game I'll ask the most inane questions. How do you know how your settings are working or not working? Is it simply chance, and whether yours have intersected with your opponent in a positive or negative way for you, or can you end up reading his positions and intentions better through extended recon in particular ways?

In other words, where do you control what happens in the air war and how much is just chance?

Well, comparing to AE you have even more control over the air war. But due to the 1 week turns much will be left to the AI. I find this especially frustrating when you suffer heavy losses.

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.

Recon works pretty much as it does in AE but with a lot more FOW. Its pretty hard to pinpoint units and get a good ID. I like that. [:)] But here again I don´t like the lack of control due to the week long turns. Since the air phase week is executed with all missions being planned at the same time you will to an extent act blindly.

I can guess my opponent may be using certain airfields and order a recon package on Monday and then followed up by strikes for the rest of the week. If the AF turns out to be empty they will bomb an empty AF...quite annoying. But it goes both ways and can get still get decent results using priorities.

All in all I think they have made a very good job with the air war. Its A LOT better then AE in pretty much every aspect. Except naval interception... That portion is pretty much an insult to the rest of the game. That will change once they get the naval module in place no doubt so I guess they just threw something in there in the meantime.

Week long turns might make me crazy!

Can you just set the strikes for one day, not three? Seems for big Rhur valley industry that is well guarded this might be good policy, just in case. Also it means he still has to guard it, but you can then set a bunch of other missions at higher frequency elsewhere.

Do you notice larger bomber concentrations having more combined protection, or is there a threshold where it doesn't really matter?

Do you feel you have enough recon assets to really get a view of at least the main area you're concentrating on?

[Helpless]

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.

One way to setup reaction to such events is to set minimum AC requirement for the AD, so it would cancel next days strikes in case of heavy losses.

[Helpless]

Do you notice larger bomber concentrations having more combined protection, or is there a threshold where it doesn't really matter?

Larger raid size provides more protection in code, but detection and interception of larger streams is also easier.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Probably not.
You're sitting in rough terrain and he likely only has the Schmalz PzG Bde in Messina with a routed and non-routed Italian sidekicks.
The ZOC movement costs to cut you off and attack would likely preclude getting back into Messina.
I bet he sits tight and waits for you to force him out.

You were right. No counterattack thankfully. [:)] Takes some getting used to playing a human. The AI seems to have less concerns with ZOC. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I'd go with this, he can't create a situation for a rout, pushing you back will cost him fatigue, so I'd suspect he'll sit tight.

More broadly think you are right to emphasis the mindset of caution and only moving when your air power can really support your ground operations. What is not clear is whether such a methodical approach may end up grinding the Germans down so you can cut loose or if its too conservative a strategy? But given the disasters in a few other AARs of taking chances and over-extending, think you have made the right choice.

It will be very interesting to compare my game and Baelfiins. He seems to be pushing a lot harder then I am so it will be a good comparison. My reasoning for taking it cautiously is that its sooo hard gaining VPs as the WA but it extremely easy to lose them.

My gut feeling says the VP system will require a lot of tweaking to get it right. I don´t think it has the proper balance yet but I have been wrong before. [:D]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Week long turns might make me crazy!

Can you just set the strikes for one day, not three? Seems for big Rhur valley industry that is well guarded this might be good policy, just in case. Also it means he still has to guard it, but you can then set a bunch of other missions at higher frequency elsewhere.

Do you notice larger bomber concentrations having more combined protection, or is there a threshold where it doesn't really matter?

Do you feel you have enough recon assets to really get a view of at least the main area you're concentrating on?

Its mostly a matter of adjustment. I don´t like the loss of control but I LOVE the fact that you can finish a game in a couple of months rather then a couple of years. In comparison to AE it actually makes the game playable. [:D]

And once you set everything up like ADs and sort out your OOB you can do a turn in fairly quickly. I take about 30 minutes to do a turn. Once I get more experience I can probably get it done in 15 minutes.

Having played a lot of AE (as you know [:D]) I don´t think I can go back to to it now. If they can ace the naval portion as they did the air this game will surpass AE in every aspect. What they did with the air is pure brillance. Whoever thought out the idea of using ADs should get a medal. [:)]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

For example in my AI game I just sent a deep strike into Germany to hit a V-weapons factory. On the way there I suffer multiple intercepts losing a lot of planes (40+). But due to the week long turn I had specified the strike to go on for 3 days...so I suffer the losses for 2 more raids.

One way to setup reaction to such events is to set minimum AC requirement for the AD, so it would cancel next days strikes in case of heavy losses.

Thats actually brilliant. [X(] Never thought of that!

[soeren01]

If you have problems hitting something with Bomber Command night attacks, try staying within oboe range.

17.3.4.1. OBOE Radar Targeting System
OBOE ground radar allows better night bombing of
factory targets when bombing within 27 hexes of any of
the following four locations 58,183 – 76, 182 – 87,180 –
90,170. This capability exists during for the entire game.

[marion61]

I'm not sure that slow and methodical will work either. If you can't build up some positive vp's in '43, you can't afford to attack when you land in France, and your losing men just being shipped thru friendly sea lanes. Your absolutely correct about WA air power, and no invasion should land without it. The axis air force has more than enough planes to ruin a halfassed invasion, and the WA cannot afford to screw up, so go all in or don't go.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: soeren01

If you have problems hitting something with Bomber Command night attacks, try staying within oboe range.

17.3.4.1. OBOE Radar Targeting System
OBOE ground radar allows better night bombing of
factory targets when bombing within 27 hexes of any of
the following four locations 58,183 – 76, 182 – 87,180 –
90,170. This capability exists during for the entire game.

Thanks! Didn´t know that. [:)] I think the Ruhr are within 27 hexes though?

ORIGINAL: meklore61

I'm not sure that slow and methodical will work either. If you can't build up some positive vp's in '43, you can't afford to attack when you land in France, and your losing men just being shipped thru friendly sea lanes. Your absolutely correct about WA air power, and no invasion should land without it. The axis air force has more than enough planes to ruin a halfassed invasion, and the WA cannot afford to screw up, so go all in or don't go.

Yeah, I think I will probably end up with a big negative score. I just can´t seem to get any positive VPs. Those inital -36 VPs I began with doesn´t help either. Pelton knows I need to hit the U-boat factories and he is covering them well. The lower AC pools in the last patch means I can´t maintain the losses hitting the U-boats. Add to that the constant loss of shipping and drowned troops adding negative VPs...I think I have had 1(!) turn with positive VPs so far. [X(] On top of that the U-boats seem to repair REALLY fast. Right now they are repairing faster then I can bomb them. [:(]

Very hard to get a positive score as the WA. Only thing that give you VPs are cities and bombing. And cities require heavy losses on the ground and the bombers are all tied up trying to keep the U-boat negative VPs from spiraling out of control.

Then again playing against Pelton probably isn´t a good measure of things. [:)]

[JocMeister]

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[font="Verdana"]Turn 5 and 6. August 1943[/font]
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Bombing the Reich
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On turn 5 we hit smaller targets around the bigger cities in Northern Germany. I needed a turn with low losses to rest and recover.

On turn 6 though we have to go after the U-boats again. Negative VPs went from -2 to -6 and its still repairing. Its a black day for Bomber Command when 169 bombers fail to return. [:(] We do inflict some damage though so its not totally in vain.

The 8th hit Kiel again witch had repaired all or most prior damage. Its a good raid considering the relatively low losses. I can only afford to send them once per week now. Another FG of P38s arrived this turn and was immediately sent to the 8th. Hopefully they can make a big difference!

[JocMeister]

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[font="Verdana"]Turn 5 and 6. August 1943[/font]
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Mediterranean
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Strategic and Tactical take a pounding hitting Messina. Lots and lots of AA. Luckily we evict the defenders on the first try using overwhelming force. [:)]

Progress on the western Island is slow. But the British XIII Corps is coming to help.

[Helpless]

Its a black day for Bomber Command when 169 bombers fail to return. We do inflict some damage though so its not totally in vain.

Could you post air losses details for the night raid to Bremenhaven? Thanks.