LiquidSky (WA) vrs Pelton (GE)

[marion61]

In reality, the allies could never have taken the majority of their forces out of the med. and launched an even larger invasion in the two months from July to Sept. Also the amphib. HQ's retain about two turns of prep points after being out of port thru a logistics phase, and those two turns of clear weather are significant. If the ef box is on, I'll feel free to invade where ever. If it stays off, I'll stay in the med. My new house rule!

I still think with the ef box on, you can successfully invade France in '43.

[Baelfiin]

I thought there was a VP cost for not being in Italy at some point.

Oh yeah just keep going straight on into Germany. Just make sure you grab your 10 hexes of France before July.

If you do not go into another garrison zone all of those Germans are stuck in France Denmark etc. even if you are about to liberate Berlin.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I thought there was a VP cost for not being in Italy at some point.

Oh yeah just keep going straight on into Germany. Just make sure you grab your 10 hexes of France before July.

If you do not go into another garrison zone all of those Germans are stuck in France Denmark etc. even if you are about to liberate Berlin.

Its 10 hexes before Feb 44 lol you can easly do that in Jan 44 on the toe.

In other words its window dressing

The game ruleset only gets pushed by players who think out side the box so its poor design areas can be found and FIXED aka WitE

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I thought there was a VP cost for not being in Italy at some point.

Oh yeah just keep going straight on into Germany. Just make sure you grab your 10 hexes of France before July.

If you do not go into another garrison zone all of those Germans are stuck in France Denmark etc. even if you are about to liberate Berlin.

Its 10 hexes before Feb 44 lol you can easly do that in Jan 44 on the toe.

In other words its window dressing

The game ruleset only gets pushed by players who think out side the box so its poor design areas can be found and FIXED aka WitE

If you moved the date to December 1943, instead of Feb 44 for the massive penalty, that may fix it, because that does not leave enough time to land in Holland in October, and Italy in December to avoid the penalty.

Either way, I feel like Churchill wants an invasion of Italy, so you better give him one in the "soft underbelly"

I also think you can get ashore in France in 1943 no matter what. Someone was bound to try it. Somewhere like Normandy, which is a PITA to break out of in 1944, is perfect in 1943. Just camp on the Cotentin peninsula.

[JocMeister]

I took me a while to realize just how brilliant this landing is. Hadn´t thought about the garrisons. [:)]

I love stuff like this.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

If you moved the date to December 1943, instead of Feb 44 for the massive penalty, that may fix it, because that does not leave enough time to land in Holland in October, and Italy in December to avoid the penalty.

Either way, I feel like Churchill wants an invasion of Italy, so you better give him one in the "soft underbelly"

I also think you can get ashore in France in 1943 no matter what. Someone was bound to try it. Somewhere like Normandy, which is a PITA to break out of in 1944, is perfect in 1943. Just camp on the Cotentin peninsula.

Or you smack a big ass VP value on stuff in Italy so it might actually be worth the losses? [:)] I really wish people would stop thinking about forcing people to do stuff with penalties all the time. People will always hate being forced to do things and will go out of their way trying to avoid them or find ways around them.

This AAR is a perfect example of that. [:)]

Make Italy worthwhile in VPs and people will go there willingly. Very simple.

[marion61]

The rule says 10 hexes in France, or Italy keeps you from getting that negative penalty, not just Italy.

[Chuske]

Invading in N.Europe in '43 is very doable in my opinion. In testing I got an invasion to stick vs the AI in the Dieppe/Le Havre area, invading in Sept '43. Did think it would be tougher vs human but Pelton's comments make me think France in '43 is a viable choice, the Axis player won't know if you are going to followup Sicily into Italy or invade France or Holland.

The downside of Holland is that you are going to find it tough to breakout due to the rivers but if you get the big ports then all you have to do is hold them and get the amphibs back to prep for another invasion in France (assuming you have enough troop ships left) and then link up to the Holland beachhead or outflank the Axis units holding the Holland beachhead?

I think I'll re-run my AI campaign from testing and start afresh and see how it plays out as the last one I only played 20 turns as I was just testing out if I could build a viable beachhead.

Make sure you flatten the Axis ports and railyards with your bombers pre-invasion.

Good luck! [:D]

[Baelfiin]

So this is what I got from my rules.

For some reason I thought there were separate penalties

[NotOneStepBack]

Fact of the matter is that the VP system is shaping allied strategy. It doesn't make any sense to invade Italy at all, which I think is a detriment to the game overall. Why would you though? It's such a grind and VP sinkhole it only sets the allied player back. I think this really needs to go back to the drawing board, or eliminate the ability of med - n europe transfers on ground units.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: NotOneStepBack

Fact of the matter is that the VP system is shaping allied strategy. It doesn't make any sense to invade Italy at all, which I think is a detriment to the game overall. Why would you though? It's such a grind and VP sinkhole it only sets the allied player back. I think this really needs to go back to the drawing board, or eliminate the ability of med - n europe transfers on ground units.

I agree it's a detriment. Eliminating intra-theater unit transfers, though, is not a good idea.

IMO, I think "No EF Box" and "No pre-44 N. Europe invasions" may have to be HRs together.

Giving Allies more VPs in Italy would also work

[marion61]

You bomb those ports and rail yards before you invade in '43, and you may be defeating the purpose. Especially if your playing a human opponent. I didn't even shoot recon until the turn I invaded to decide weather I was going to actually hit the invade button, but I'm pretty sure I locked down the area around my beaches for about 15 hexes in most directions. It's a good thing railway interdiction caps out with all the bombers I had flying just railway for that reason.

I know this tactic works most of the time, but I'll fly recon and naval interdiction missions, on low, for a few days to make an opponent think I'm headed there or have plans for it. If you start bombing somewhere early, you may well give your invasion away. As the axis player, I saw someone's naval interdiction numbers rise in an area, and I was waiting for them. It's middle August now, and he just broke out from around Rennes. Just saying be careful using your air assets too soon. If your waiting thru winter-spring '44, I would bomb those ports and railyards till it was time, but if I want surprise, I'll hold off till the turn the surprise starts.

[Chuske]

meklore61 you are right it can give the game away unless you keep him guessing with attacks in areas you don't intend to invade or as you say hit hard on the invasion turn but not before. Important though to reduce axis port naval interdiction as much as you can, even if just on invasion turn.

Naval interdiction should definitely not be done until the turn you invade if you want surprise.

[LiquidSky]

I tailored this invasion to my opponent, and how I feel he plays. I strongly suspect that every German unit he can scrape off the Atlantic wall is in Italy. In fact, since I think of it, I don't remember ever seeing an Atlantic wall..which means every bit of spare concrete is also probably in Italy.

In other words, the soft underbelly of Europe is actually the North.

But that was by design. The design of the German player. When I reconned the coast, I saw no fortifications...no units on the non port hexes. The rules say that you inflict all kinds of damage on the invading units, just by sitting in a level 2 fort...or higher. (due to naval guns). You may lose the unit to invasion anyways, but it will inflict out of proportion of its size in percentage losses to the invaders.

This is not going to end up being a Lvov Gambit. It is very easy to prevent the allies landing here. Those cities make wonderful depot filled fortifications to slow the invader. The west wall can be finished up to the top of the Rhine. The northern Dutch ferries are unusable by the allies since you cant move into the Zuider Zee with amphibs.

No...what I think will happen from this is Italy will be easier to invade in future games, as the Germans will have to think about defending the atlantic wall first, Italy second...as was historical.

Italy really does have very few VP's in it, unless you can take Rome fast. After Sicily, you get Naples and Taranto. It is not worth using half the German army to defend.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I tailored this invasion to my opponent, and how I feel he plays. I strongly suspect that every German unit he can scrape off the Atlantic wall is in Italy. In fact, since I think of it, I don't remember ever seeing an Atlantic wall..which means every bit of spare concrete is also probably in Italy.

In other words, the soft underbelly of Europe is actually the North.

But that was by design. The design of the German player. When I reconned the coast, I saw no fortifications...no units on the non port hexes. The rules say that you inflict all kinds of damage on the invading units, just by sitting in a level 2 fort...or higher. (due to naval guns). You may lose the unit to invasion anyways, but it will inflict out of proportion of its size in percentage losses to the invaders.

This is not going to end up being a Lvov Gambit. It is very easy to prevent the allies landing here. Those cities make wonderful depot filled fortifications to slow the invader. The west wall can be finished up to the top of the Rhine. The northern Dutch ferries are unusable by the allies since you cant move into the Zuider Zee with amphibs.

No...what I think will happen from this is Italy will be easier to invade in future games, as the Germans will have to think about defending the atlantic wall first, Italy second...as was historical.

Italy really does have very few VP's in it, unless you can take Rome fast. After Sicily, you get Naples and Taranto. It is not worth using half the German army to defend.

Your the Allies you don't have to do anything.

Germany is the control and has to play by whatever is the rule set.

Thk out side the box.

Wish I did not play only Germany, trashing the current rule set is to easy.

7 wins and 4 more to be wins and finally someone who can thk.

GJ liquidsky your not a zombie

[Peltonx]

Now the designers have to thk or all is Middle Earth and not historical.

Still 3 yrs ahead of WitE, but still thinking is now required to balance.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



I tailored this invasion to my opponent, and how I feel he plays. I strongly suspect that every German unit he can scrape off the Atlantic wall is in Italy. In fact, since I think of it, I don't remember ever seeing an Atlantic wall..which means every bit of spare concrete is also probably in Italy.

In other words, the soft underbelly of Europe is actually the North.

But that was by design. The design of the German player.

Very smart play actually on your part.

[Baelfiin]

I am looking forward to seeing you raid Berlin.[&o] Also looking forward to hearing the howling phase in march 44 when the garrison requirements for France go up and you are crunching around on the north German plain [:)]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I am looking forward to seeing you raid Berlin.[&o] Also looking forward to hearing the howling phase in march 44 when the garrison requirements for France go up and you are crunching around on the north German plain [:)]

Read the rules

18.2.1

[Baelfiin]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

I am looking forward to seeing you raid Berlin.[&o] Also looking forward to hearing the howling phase in march 44 when the garrison requirements for France go up and you are crunching around on the north German plain [:)]

Read the rules

18.2.1

I can't count that high. But now that I look on the next page I get my 2x4. Not nearly as bad as I thought it was.