Tale of the Sheep! - JocMeister (A) vs. Lowpe (J)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Normally I wouldn´t accept a SCEN 30/SCEN 2 game with a "No strat bombing in China" HR. It basically gives the Japanese a bastion of quite a lot of LI/HI including some free oil for the rest of the war. But as with all things in life playing AE is a compromise. I got my PDU OFF game and in exchange for that I give something away I wouldn´t normally do. [:)]

Other then that there is nothing special about the HRs. Initially Olorin suggested that 44 and 45 wouldn´t have an altitude limit. In a PDU ON game that is probably a good idea as the Allied can use some help in the air. But since this is a PDU OFF game I suggested we have a limit or most allied fighters could climb well above those of Japanese fighters getting the infamous "dive bonus".

I have very high hopes for the air war in this game. A max altitude limit together with PDU OFF should make this a very different experience then what I am used to. In Erik/GJ game we have seen Boomerangs and Mowhawks in combat for example. How cool is that? [:)]

Does Hong Kong count as China for that HR? Serious question, as HK is a British base, not Chinese.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

So you are playing Olorin? You didn't mention an opponent specifically, and the post showing the game start menu is set to "Head to Head" rather than PBEM.
I presume you will use the extended map with stacking limits?

[:D] They will be 'butting heads' - so it's head to head! [:D]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Do the changes to boost AA apply to your scenario? Would be a big help in the early months.

As far as I can understand its the DBB version of SCEN 2. So any DBB changes should be in there.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Does Hong Kong count as China for that HR? Serious question, as HK is a British base, not Chinese.

That is indeed a good question! [X(] But I would assume its off limits.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Does Hong Kong count as China for that HR? Serious question, as HK is a British base, not Chinese.

That is indeed a good question! [X(] But I would assume its off limits.

I had similar thoughts - how is it OK to invade and plant your flag on a Pacific Island that did not previously belong to you, but not an Indian city. India did not get its independence until after WWII. And places like Port Arthur could be claimed as "prior territory" by China, Manchuria, Russia, Japan and maybe Korea!
The status of foreign enclaves can be settled post-war, but certainly the PP should be minimal. I am sure Stalin did not willingly give up his conquests in the east and would not do so without some quid pro quo.

[JocMeister]

Looked through the SCEN 30 a little bit last night. Noticed the plane stats have changed quite a lot. I guess its the changes Simon did that was incorporated into DBB? Most of the Japanese late war fighters have had their max ceiling reduced quite a bit and very few (if any?) can fly about 35k. So I suggested to Olorin that we should reduce the max alt to 30k from 43 all the way to the end.

Not sure I could resist the temptation of strato sweeping... [:D]

Olorin will start working on the dreaded first turn tomorrow. With some luck I might get sometime during the weekend.

[BattleMoose]

Subscribed, looking forward to it!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Looked through the SCEN 30 a little bit last night. Noticed the plane stats have changed quite a lot. I guess its the changes Simon did that was incorporated into DBB? Most of the Japanese late war fighters have had their max ceiling reduced quite a bit and very few (if any?) can fly about 35k. So I suggested to Olorin that we should reduce the max alt to 30k from 43 all the way to the end.

Not sure I could resist the temptation of strato sweeping... [:D]

Olorin will start working on the dreaded first turn tomorrow. With some luck I might get sometime during the weekend.

If you're using Symon's new numbers there are a few things that stand out immediately:

1. The George is tough. Much better than in stock, and that is going to surprise you! It did me.

2. The Hellcat is also better than stock, and so by mid-43 the Allies actually have a top notch fighter in numbers, so that's good for you (and me). [:)]

3. The P-40E-K are slightly better, with the K being a pretty decent fighter for late 42-43. Especially since there are a lot of A6M and Oscars around.

4. The P-39 does really well defensively.

5. The later Oscars and A6M that he'll undoubtedly go for ASAP are very good in the middle game, years before they would have been deployed.

After 43 I can't help you, but based on Nick's experience with Mr Kane using these airframe stats I don't want to see the Ki-83 or the Ki-94. The Frank 'r' might also be a beast.

All in all it feels pretty balanced by late 42. In early 42 though, the A6M rules and because of the reduction in numbers of PDU-off, you have almost nothing to fight with. As it should be! Pick your spots well! [:D]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

So you are playing Olorin? You didn't mention an opponent specifically, and the post showing the game start menu is set to "Head to Head" rather than PBEM.
I presume you will use the extended map with stacking limits?

Yes, I´m playing Olorin. The screen was just to show I´ve gotten everything installed and setup. [:)]

Yup, extended map and SL. Not a fan of SL. But I´m not a fan of no SL either.

I think you'll get to like SL. It's a big limiter fro both sides, and late he won't be able to stop you with 3k AV in a spot no matter what you bring, as I could in a few places. In China I think you can use them to your benefit early, and there are some very small choke points you can use to really slow things for the Japanese. He'll be using more supply to change over factories since he has to make virtually everything in PDU-off, so every bit you can bleed off his economy by forcing slower pace, more attacks, more bombing, the better.

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you're using Symon's new numbers there are a few things that stand out immediately:

1. The George is tough. Much better than in stock, and that is going to surprise you! It did me.

2. The Hellcat is also better than stock, and so by mid-43 the Allies actually have a top notch fighter in numbers, so that's good for you (and me). [:)]

3. The P-40E-K are slightly better, with the K being a pretty decent fighter for late 42-43. Especially since there are a lot of A6M and Oscars around.

4. The P-39 does really well defensively.

5. The later Oscars and A6M that he'll undoubtedly go for ASAP are very good in the middle game, years before they would have been deployed.

After 43 I can't help you, but based on Nick's experience with Mr Kane using these airframe stats I don't want to see the Ki-83 or the Ki-94. The Frank 'r' might also be a beast.

All in all it feels pretty balanced by late 42. In early 42 though, the A6M rules and because of the reduction in numbers of PDU-off, you have almost nothing to fight with. As it should be! Pick your spots well! [:D]

Well, Nick and I were playing without Symon's new a/c data. Anyway, Ki-84r was my warhorse for most of time for offensive missions. Ki-44-IIc was my main defensive fighters till '45.
Ki-83 is great but expensive and with PDU-OFF your opponent can upgrade only 2-3 units to that model.
The final model for most of Japan air units is Ki-94-II witch is good as offensive weapon, but it does not fit to be defender due to low climb rate.

Please be advised that not only N1K1 is beast now, but the same story has happen to J2M, too.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you're using Symon's new numbers there are a few things that stand out immediately:

1. The George is tough. Much better than in stock, and that is going to surprise you! It did me.

2. The Hellcat is also better than stock, and so by mid-43 the Allies actually have a top notch fighter in numbers, so that's good for you (and me). [:)]

3. The P-40E-K are slightly better, with the K being a pretty decent fighter for late 42-43. Especially since there are a lot of A6M and Oscars around.

4. The P-39 does really well defensively.

5. The later Oscars and A6M that he'll undoubtedly go for ASAP are very good in the middle game, years before they would have been deployed.

After 43 I can't help you, but based on Nick's experience with Mr Kane using these airframe stats I don't want to see the Ki-83 or the Ki-94. The Frank 'r' might also be a beast.

All in all it feels pretty balanced by late 42. In early 42 though, the A6M rules and because of the reduction in numbers of PDU-off, you have almost nothing to fight with. As it should be! Pick your spots well! [:D]

Are you sure about the P40? When I look at the new stats compared to an old save (that I think is stock) the P40s are almost identical. Same speed, 2 more MVR but worse climb? P39 is also worse with a lot lower climb. But perhaps all planes had their climb lowered? Didn´t notice much difference with the Hellcat either? But I´m not sure what I´m comparing with. I think its stock.

Is there a thread somewhere detailing the new changes?

Regarding SLs I really hated it China. Retreats causing overstacking which then burns supply. Yuck. I remember on particular nasty incident NW of Sian where Tom caused three retreats the same turn. All retreated to the same hex. BAM. Zero supply. 3000 AV gone. [:(]

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Well, Nick and I were playing without Symon's new a/c data. Anyway, Ki-84r was my warhorse for most of time for offensive missions. Ki-43-IIc was my main defensive fighters till '45.
Ki-83 is great but expensive and with PDU-OFF your opponent can upgrade only 2-3 units to that model.
The final model for most of Japan air units is Ki-94-II witch is good as offensive weapon, but it does not fit to be defender due to low climb rate.

Please be advised that not only N1K1 is beast now, but the same story has happen to J2M, too.

Just looked at the George and Jack. Jeeezuuus. [X(]

[witpqs]

Frank will be tough. Not sure which model(s).

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Frank will be tough. Not sure which model(s).

Just checked. They are actually pretty alike all three models. Slight boost from stock which means it will be slightly worse to deal with. [X(]

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: obvert

If you're using Symon's new numbers there are a few things that stand out immediately:

1. The George is tough. Much better than in stock, and that is going to surprise you! It did me.

2. The Hellcat is also better than stock, and so by mid-43 the Allies actually have a top notch fighter in numbers, so that's good for you (and me). [:)]

3. The P-40E-K are slightly better, with the K being a pretty decent fighter for late 42-43. Especially since there are a lot of A6M and Oscars around.

4. The P-39 does really well defensively.

5. The later Oscars and A6M that he'll undoubtedly go for ASAP are very good in the middle game, years before they would have been deployed.

After 43 I can't help you, but based on Nick's experience with Mr Kane using these airframe stats I don't want to see the Ki-83 or the Ki-94. The Frank 'r' might also be a beast.

All in all it feels pretty balanced by late 42. In early 42 though, the A6M rules and because of the reduction in numbers of PDU-off, you have almost nothing to fight with. As it should be! Pick your spots well! [:D]

Are you sure about the P40? When I look at the new stats compared to an old save (that I think is stock) the P40s are almost identical. Same speed, 2 more MVR but worse climb? P39 is also worse with a lot lower climb. But perhaps all planes had their climb lowered? Didn´t notice much difference with the Hellcat either? But I´m not sure what I´m comparing with. I think its stock.

Is there a thread somewhere detailing the new changes?

Regarding SLs I really hated it China. Retreats causing overstacking which then burns supply. Yuck. I remember on particular nasty incident NW of Sian where Tom caused three retreats the same turn. All retreated to the same hex. BAM. Zero supply. 3000 AV gone. [:(]

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Well, Nick and I were playing without Symon's new a/c data. Anyway, Ki-84r was my warhorse for most of time for offensive missions. Ki-43-IIc was my main defensive fighters till '45.
Ki-83 is great but expensive and with PDU-OFF your opponent can upgrade only 2-3 units to that model.
The final model for most of Japan air units is Ki-94-II witch is good as offensive weapon, but it does not fit to be defender due to low climb rate.

Please be advised that not only N1K1 is beast now, but the same story has happen to J2M, too.

Just looked at the George and Jack. Jeeezuuus. [X(]

P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: MrKane
P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

I only extensively played with it in my game against Erik. Sadly the max ALT for the K is only 29k. With Tojos sweeping from 31k Erik tore them to pieces.

With a max alt HR they might actually prove useful this time around. [:)]

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Frank will be tough. Not sure which model(s).

Just checked. They are actually pretty alike all three models. Slight boost from stock which means it will be slightly worse to deal with. [X(]

You will meet a large amount of units equipped with Ki-84a, some of them will switch to Ki-84r but not all.
Ki-84b will be very rare plane, and he can have K-83 in the same time, no reason to rush it into production just to equip 1 or 2 units.

[aztez]

Good luck! Enjoy the journey!

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: MrKane
P-40K is very good plane even without Symon's a/c changes.

I only extensively played with it in my game against Erik. Sadly the max ALT for the K is only 29k. With Tojos sweeping from 31k Erik tore them to pieces.

With a max alt HR they might actually prove useful this time around. [:)]

Yes, and with PDU-off they aren't fighting nearly as many of the Tojos either! [:)]

This is the main reason the P-40E feels better too I think, but it is rugged, and that may somehow come out more in the numbers here.

As someone once told me about SLs in China; "you have to prepare for retreats!" Not always entirely possible, but might be sometimes. It helps to create distractions that draw Japanese air away from China. Try losing most of India. That worked for me. [;)]

[MrKane]

Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

The IJ player should have cut the roads by the time this could happen. Prime reason to cut the roads, actually - prevent other units from getting in.

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: MrKane

Well about China it works for me to walk a few Brit Heavy AA units to China. It takes forever but when they got there Japan ability to bomb Chinese troops is become limited to high level bombing and it still is very expensive in a/c.

The IJ player should have cut the roads by the time this could happen. Prime reason to cut the roads, actually - prevent other units from getting in.

My opponent did it. However I walk through mountains, I as said it took me time, but if he will start now he can be there there before summer '42.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: obvert
As someone once told me about SLs in China; "you have to prepare for retreats!" Not always entirely possible, but might be sometimes. It helps to create distractions that draw Japanese air away from China. Try losing most of India. That worked for me. [;)]

Haha, I´m pretty sure Olorin will go for Oz though. But it might have the same effect? [:D]

ORIGINAL: MrKane
My opponent did it. However I walk through mountains, I as said it took me time, but if he will start now he can be there there before summer '42.

China usually crumbles around 4/42. [:D]