Got curious so i did test of my own
gave germans 2 105mm batteries and 1 150mm
Soviets 3 152mm batteries, 2 203mm batteries
Germans fired 105s evry other turn, the 150 fired for 2 consecutive turns. One 152mm battery counter fired once, getting 2 hits on 105, it was silenced for 2 turns
niether 203 counter battery fired nor did the other 2 152, after 12 turns i quit the test.
Shouldnt there been a little more counter battery fire? all russian batteries were idle
Alby
Counter-battery fire tested
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
Interesting Thread ... now that we haved upped the Price on long range US Arty and evened the playing field somewhat so that German 150mm' can counterbattery the US 155mm's and not worry so much about the US 8" there is a susgestion to increase CBF effectiveness and increase arty retreats to 5-7 turns... very interesting
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
Not sure but I think the prices of ALL arty has been looked at, not just US long range
Why shouldnt a 150mm be able to counter fire a 155?, Seems to me a 105 should be able to counter fire bigger guns than itself as well.
I feel all guns should be able to counter fire all other guns (range would come into question here though).
Guess Id rather have my own option of CB fire than leaving it up to the AI to decide
is what i am trying to say.
Why shouldnt a 150mm be able to counter fire a 155?, Seems to me a 105 should be able to counter fire bigger guns than itself as well.
I feel all guns should be able to counter fire all other guns (range would come into question here though).
Guess Id rather have my own option of CB fire than leaving it up to the AI to decide
is what i am trying to say.
In order to CBF in the GAME a battery must have equal or greater range.. i guess some folks know this and some don't .. so given that that is true of the GAME and since my understanding is that ONLY the 8" was being increased to be very expensive based on Paul Vebbers "Gottacha" but you win post on the Arty over 155mm thread. If all arty is being increased to decrease it's role in the game then the game is being changed to favor the Germans by reducing Allied Arty advantage in a BIG WAY ...not that holding the line on trying to keep the Allies in the Game with anything like what they had that allows them to win seems to be helping any here ...Yes we know tank on tank the germans are better and yes we know that already the M4A3E8 HVSS is priced higher than Panthers and Tigers so by the time you finish reducing Artys role in the game the German should have Arty Parity and a numerical advantage in tanks if the US buys their best ones ... look at the price in the OOB's for yourself ...
"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which
I dont know what will be instore once the new oobs are out, perhaps all prices have been looked at and adjusted accordingly.lets hope, i have some questions with some of the pricing of some things as well(not allied OR axis in particular)I also know of the CBF rules about equal or bigger to CBF, was just wondering why this is so, why should a 105 not be able to counter fire a 122mm for example, or a 155 To a 203mm. I have also noticed that I can achieve .01 delay with US arty only(sp mortars excluded). so they still have some advantages.
Main point of original post was to discuss CBF, not to try to gain advantage for allies OR axis.
will repost something here just so all know I am not anti allied
Staying true to facts
During WW2, after '43 the Germans were generally outnumbered in any engagement by a fair margin. In Russia, 11-1 was a common ratio, In Italy and Europe, 5-1 or more, with the odds getting longer for the Krauts as you got closer to wars end. The Russians in particular had just a load of anti-tank guns from 20mm and up, sometimes 12 guns to every German armored vehicle. Also the Allied forces had more artillery than tanks, in most cases. As to air, the Germans were lucky to have spotter aircraft in operational area after August of '44. They had no control of air at all in most cases. A German tank moving in daylight( or any German vehicle or formation) would have been strafed and bombed to hell. I read somewhere that the Germans laughed at our US tanks, Disrespected our troops as amateurs, but ran for the bunker when they saw a butterbar(2nd Lt.)with a radio, 'cause they knew that the mighty US ARTY was on the way. US ARTY was superior to ALL the others because they could consolidate fire from several batteries from different areas onto one target faster than anyone else. also, we had a early version of a computer that had worked out all the variables for assigning a fire mission. all the battery commander had to do was look up some tables, consult a little wheel like gizmo, and BOOM!
Main point of original post was to discuss CBF, not to try to gain advantage for allies OR axis.
will repost something here just so all know I am not anti allied
Staying true to facts
During WW2, after '43 the Germans were generally outnumbered in any engagement by a fair margin. In Russia, 11-1 was a common ratio, In Italy and Europe, 5-1 or more, with the odds getting longer for the Krauts as you got closer to wars end. The Russians in particular had just a load of anti-tank guns from 20mm and up, sometimes 12 guns to every German armored vehicle. Also the Allied forces had more artillery than tanks, in most cases. As to air, the Germans were lucky to have spotter aircraft in operational area after August of '44. They had no control of air at all in most cases. A German tank moving in daylight( or any German vehicle or formation) would have been strafed and bombed to hell. I read somewhere that the Germans laughed at our US tanks, Disrespected our troops as amateurs, but ran for the bunker when they saw a butterbar(2nd Lt.)with a radio, 'cause they knew that the mighty US ARTY was on the way. US ARTY was superior to ALL the others because they could consolidate fire from several batteries from different areas onto one target faster than anyone else. also, we had a early version of a computer that had worked out all the variables for assigning a fire mission. all the battery commander had to do was look up some tables, consult a little wheel like gizmo, and BOOM!
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Paul Vebber
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We are limited in many ways by how SP3 origianlly did things. "Equal or greater range" was the way they did it. Is it perfect, no, might we change it in the future, perhaps. There may be a reason its stuck that way that makes it really hard to change...
And AmmoSgt...IF you want to argue about unit pricing now, go to the TO&E forum and bitch all you want. The prices are based on the game ratings, not how many were produced. IF you want to fight 5-1 oodds of Tigers vs M4A3E8 HVSS then go right ahead.
The point totals were based on a consitant formula considering all the unit ratings, so an Easy 8 comes out 176 points. Its front hull is 85@42 as opposed to the Tigers 100@25 effectively the Easy 8 is thicker. Front Turret of teh Tiger is 176 @ 8 while teh Sherman is 103 at 38. Advantage there to the Tiger at flat angles, but the Tigers 88 is not a sure thing on the Sherman turret. The M1A1C gun has pen of 137 and 196 APCR The Tiger 150 and no APCR - both are capable of frontal penetration, though the Tiger has an advantage at range becasue of T/D ratio. The Sherman's mobility advantage tends to mitigate that. Tell me the charateristics that need to be chnaged to make the Tiger so much better?
Result Easy 8 comes out 176 and Tiger 169 essentially a wash. Panther D is 168 but G is 187.
On the one hand you want the Allies to have their due vs the Germans, and when we rate things objectively giving the Easy 8 the credit it is due, that torques you off becasue you can't have overwhelming numbers of the less common "good" models of the Sherman. There was generally only 1 76mm armed Sherman per platoon untli late in the war. German accounts abound of the stress in having to find the "long gun" in the platoon and get it first - either the Firefly or the 76mm Sherman - which they fully repected!
ITs true that the Germans feared "the one guy with the radio" becasue he could bring 30 batteries of artillery on his head! Feel free to make scenarios where the US gets 3 or 4 battalions of artillery and 3-1 numerical advantage in troops and see if you can get anyone to play it with you...
Aat the end of the day wew have to balance "realism" with "playability" and allow you more than enough options to nmake any sort of scenario that you want.
Battlegenerator games are by definition unrealistic becasue they are gered to make "even" battles that both sides have decent (not equal) chance of winning.
I look forward to any "realistic" scenarios you design to portray the sort of artillery dominant battles you think were most common (which they were!! but not fun to play...)
And AmmoSgt...IF you want to argue about unit pricing now, go to the TO&E forum and bitch all you want. The prices are based on the game ratings, not how many were produced. IF you want to fight 5-1 oodds of Tigers vs M4A3E8 HVSS then go right ahead.
The point totals were based on a consitant formula considering all the unit ratings, so an Easy 8 comes out 176 points. Its front hull is 85@42 as opposed to the Tigers 100@25 effectively the Easy 8 is thicker. Front Turret of teh Tiger is 176 @ 8 while teh Sherman is 103 at 38. Advantage there to the Tiger at flat angles, but the Tigers 88 is not a sure thing on the Sherman turret. The M1A1C gun has pen of 137 and 196 APCR The Tiger 150 and no APCR - both are capable of frontal penetration, though the Tiger has an advantage at range becasue of T/D ratio. The Sherman's mobility advantage tends to mitigate that. Tell me the charateristics that need to be chnaged to make the Tiger so much better?
Result Easy 8 comes out 176 and Tiger 169 essentially a wash. Panther D is 168 but G is 187.
On the one hand you want the Allies to have their due vs the Germans, and when we rate things objectively giving the Easy 8 the credit it is due, that torques you off becasue you can't have overwhelming numbers of the less common "good" models of the Sherman. There was generally only 1 76mm armed Sherman per platoon untli late in the war. German accounts abound of the stress in having to find the "long gun" in the platoon and get it first - either the Firefly or the 76mm Sherman - which they fully repected!
ITs true that the Germans feared "the one guy with the radio" becasue he could bring 30 batteries of artillery on his head! Feel free to make scenarios where the US gets 3 or 4 battalions of artillery and 3-1 numerical advantage in troops and see if you can get anyone to play it with you...
Aat the end of the day wew have to balance "realism" with "playability" and allow you more than enough options to nmake any sort of scenario that you want.
Battlegenerator games are by definition unrealistic becasue they are gered to make "even" battles that both sides have decent (not equal) chance of winning.
I look forward to any "realistic" scenarios you design to portray the sort of artillery dominant battles you think were most common (which they were!! but not fun to play...)
We are limited in many ways by how SP3 origianlly did things. "Equal or greater range" was the way they did it. Is it perfect, no, might we change it in the future, perhaps. There may be a reason its stuck that way that makes it really hard to change...
Paul, not agruing, just curiosity has got me, plus nothing good on TV at the moment heheh
In sp3 all arty was onboard, and I could counter any arty I wanted with whatever i wanted. I often used the french long range 120mm mortars to counter 155s ect ect. So what am i missing here?
Once again not arguing, just curious, cant learn unless ya ask right? heheh
oops just reread about "equal or greater range" Had it in my head it was "equal or greater size"
so actually the german 150mm SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS been able to counter the us 155howie, coz they have the same range.
So what is ammos beef? Im confused here!?
If the 8inch and 155FG are in the us oobs then the germans have nothing to counter them due to the range thing.. Not complaining or trying to get one oob in or another out, just trying to figure it all out.
Im lost as ever!!!
Paul, not agruing, just curiosity has got me, plus nothing good on TV at the moment heheh
In sp3 all arty was onboard, and I could counter any arty I wanted with whatever i wanted. I often used the french long range 120mm mortars to counter 155s ect ect. So what am i missing here?
Once again not arguing, just curious, cant learn unless ya ask right? heheh
oops just reread about "equal or greater range" Had it in my head it was "equal or greater size"
so actually the german 150mm SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS been able to counter the us 155howie, coz they have the same range.
So what is ammos beef? Im confused here!?
If the 8inch and 155FG are in the us oobs then the germans have nothing to counter them due to the range thing.. Not complaining or trying to get one oob in or another out, just trying to figure it all out.
Im lost as ever!!!
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Paul Vebber
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YOu got me! must have been code form SP2 added when we put the OBA in...how long ago THAT was!
Never be afraid to argue - its half the fun!
LIke I said above - the battle generator and the point systme is set up to create even battles, sine few real battles were even - that means they tend by definition to be somewhat unrealistic.
So if its not what you can buy, its how much it costs. You have to calculate point costs in context! If you say a Tiger can kill 4 Shermans so it should cost 4 times as much, you end up with a geometric point scale becasue a Sherman can kill 3 Pz IIs and a PzII can kill 3 squads.
Now you end up with a price structure where you can buy a whole battalion of infantry for the cost of a Tiger and - that much infantry can always how many Tigers??? ...ARGGGGH my brain hurts - time to go to bed
Never be afraid to argue - its half the fun!
LIke I said above - the battle generator and the point systme is set up to create even battles, sine few real battles were even - that means they tend by definition to be somewhat unrealistic.
So if its not what you can buy, its how much it costs. You have to calculate point costs in context! If you say a Tiger can kill 4 Shermans so it should cost 4 times as much, you end up with a geometric point scale becasue a Sherman can kill 3 Pz IIs and a PzII can kill 3 squads.
Now you end up with a price structure where you can buy a whole battalion of infantry for the cost of a Tiger and - that much infantry can always how many Tigers??? ...ARGGGGH my brain hurts - time to go to bed
What is all this talk about SP3. In SP3 you had all your artillery on the board!!! 
Secondly. Even if you have all your batteries set to counter battery fire, what makes you think that they'll even find the enemy batteries? Secondly (again) what makes you think that they will even hit them once they are found? If the battery was found w/o a spotter then the damage should not be that great either. Shells can scatter a lot.
I think that the system as is is fine.
Secondly. Even if you have all your batteries set to counter battery fire, what makes you think that they'll even find the enemy batteries? Secondly (again) what makes you think that they will even hit them once they are found? If the battery was found w/o a spotter then the damage should not be that great either. Shells can scatter a lot.
I think that the system as is is fine.
Excuse me, but I started the thread several months ago, long before your conspirational tripe entered this board.Originally posted by AmmoSgt:
Interesting Thread ... now that we haved upped the Price on long range US Arty and evened the playing field somewhat so that German 150mm' can counterbattery the US 155mm's and not worry so much about the US 8" there is a susgestion to increase CBF effectiveness and increase arty retreats to 5-7 turns... very interesting
My concern is (and was, as nothing's changed since then) the overall effectiveness of ALL counter-battery fire. When it happened in earlier versions than 4.2, it generally wiped the receiving battery's whole ammunition load out on the first shot. There were complaints, so it was changed in v4.2.
Unfortunately it went to the other extreme, which is making the receiving battery rout for 2 turns. Needless to say, this pretty much eliminated it's effect, and neutralised any psychologic playing with artillery ("Should I leave the batteries to counter the enemy's or do my troops need more support on the field? Should I buy some batteries just to CBF? Dare I order a fire mission as the enemy's big guns haven't fired for a while?").
So your darling 8 inchers might be counter firing the Germans as much as you'd like, but it bloody well wouldn't have any effect since the ***less Krauts would just be able to fire again 2 turns later. Infinitely, or as long as they have ammo, as there is no cumulative effect either.
Hopefully you see my concern now. I would suggest that you widen your views a little to encompass the whole game, even if you're only playing one country all the time.
And lastly, with as little drama as possible, I'm placing you on my Ignore list. Your attitude is ugly, and so are your posts (try using paragraphs and punctuation for Pete's sake, to make them readable). You have my whole-hearted encouragement to do the same for me.
Kharan
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Paul Vebber
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