WEGO games, what happened to them?

[loki100]

Montgomery deliberately used Wellington's model of the 'roving officers', altipueri's quote is spot on as to the style of command that ran through the British army for the best part of 400 years. Now whether it was the most effective model is a different question.

[Grotius]

ORIGINAL: loki100

don't think you can have too many hard assumptions. AGEOD used it (very well) for games running from grand strategy to operational, to low density (say Wars in America) to high density (Civil War 2).

Flashpoint has low and very high density scenarios and also calls into question whether wego order games can cope with relatively fast movement.

My view on this now is that you need to match up ground scale/time scale. A WW2 streategy Wego using say the Pride of Nations map would be a disaster, large areas/2 weeks turns and the wego mechanics?

Thanks for this. In general, I'm skeptical about a purely strategic WEGO game. It might be too random, too chaotic, with turns representing several weeks or even months of time. WIF has a nice compromise -- IGo/YouGo, but lots of shorter impulses, limits on player action choices, and interruptions by the opposing side.

[altipueri]

Be it an officer telling a squad to cross a road, and they get cut down by an unseen machine gun;
Or Napoleon sending a courier to a marshal telling him to be somewhere in two days time, but the courier is killed
WEGO is to my mind the best wargame system.
Thank goodness it's only pixel troops dying under my command.
------

Churchill is out of fashion at the moment but much of what he wrote is very good, and well written. If any of you are interested in the Russians/Americans/Brits in Afghanistan I recommend at least the first few pages of "The Malakand Field Force" - you can get it for free on the web as it is out of copyright.

In fact here you go: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9404/9404-h/9404-h.htm

[Grotius]

Wow, thanks for that great link. Reading now.

[wodin]

WEGO for me is my favourite.

[StasSche]

Just a quick update: one of the best WEGO games (Flashpoint campaigns) is now on -70% sale on Steam till 1st of March 2021.

[MrRoadrunner]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
If I could snap my fingers and make it so, ALL computer wargames would use WEGO in distint turn increments. WEGO is the only computer design element I've ever witnessed that lacks 'gamey' elements. It requires the gamer to actually have a plan, and to actually run with that plan. Because once you hit end turn, there's no option to pause and change your mind. No option to constantly alter decisions with feverish mouseclicking. The turn will resolve and you will have to just wait and see the results. We hardly seem to be making any real use out of the mechanical muscle of computers in our wargames.

You're finger snap will end my computer game experience. I prefer IGoUGo. It's a more board war gaming feel.
I tried Combat Mission and hated the process of transferring files back and forth with opponents.

I play John Tiller Campaign Series almost exclusively against PBEM opponents. I play very little against the AI. I look over the map and objectives. I devise a plan and alter it as game conditions warrant. No plan ever survives first contact.
The club I belong to has rules against "gamey" tactics. No replays or cracking files.
It's worked for me since 2002 when I joined The Blitz.

I do understand your points and preferences. But, please, do not snap your fingers and take away the game I love to play. [:)]


RR

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
I play John Tiller Campaign Series almost exclusively against PBEM opponents. I play very little against the AI. I look over the map and objectives. I devise a plan and alter it as game conditions warrant. No plan ever survives first contact.

The Campaign Series gave me one of the best moments ever in gaming. I had two computers networked with JT:CE on both. A wargaming pal of mine came almost every day to play. It was like playing on the tabletop: beer, bragging and barbs ("The only offensive thing in your offensive is to call it 'an offensive'..." stuff like this [:D])

I still remember when I defeated him three times in a row playing as the Russians. He became so angry that he stormed away, declaring that "the programmer of the game was a Communist!" (the beer level was... not low). I countered the very next day by winning with the Germans ("Let's rock - with von Bock!"(*))

Some of the best gaming in my life. At the end of the day there are not rules: a good game, mixed with good company and good beverages. Tabletop, computer, male, female... whatever it works.

(*) I actually had a file with all the memes we invented while playing JT:CS. I lost it in some computer renovation: an important cultural document lost to the World...

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

WEGO as a design isn't to hard to find, but, the designs using it are not always what the gamer seeks.

Combat Mission is WEGO. But it is fully 3d.
Combat Command is WEGO. It's a bit older, but age hasn't prevented Steel Panthers from being great, so Combat Command might interest you just as easily.
If you can get V4Victory running through DOS Box they were good designs.

Desert War will have an advantage as it is new software.

If I could snap my fingers and make it so, ALL computer wargames would use WEGO in distint turn increments. WEGO is the only computer design element I've ever witnessed that lacks 'gamey' elements. It requires the gamer to actually have a plan, and to actually run with that plan. Because once you hit end turn, there's no option to pause and change your mind. No option to constantly alter decisions with feverish mouseclicking. The turn will resolve and you will have to just wait and see the results. We hardly seem to be making any real use out of the mechanical muscle of computers in our wargames.

Desert War mechanics I find really have a negative impact on what makes WEGO games exciting. The turn replay is where WEGO should shine and where nail biting tension should play out. In DW as the units aren't animated and just jump from hex to hex plus I feel it doesn't do a good job of informing the player what is happening during the turn. AT the moment you'd be forgiven if you thought the game was some kind IGOUGO hybrid. Just animating the counters as they move would enhance the game ten fold. Then it would show off what's enjoyable about WEGO.

Also this " We hardly seem to be making any real use out of the mechanical muscle of computers in our wargames." I couldn't agree more.We have recently innovative wargames that have been released or highly detailed monster wargames out or due out all at wargame scales above tactical. So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

[Hodugherty]

WEGO for me is my favourite!

[z1812]

There are turned based games I play that I really enjoy, like Field of Glory 2 and Lock N Load Tactical Digital, however I can only imagine how much they would be improved if they included an option for WEGO.

As far as I know,the most comprehensive options for play are provided by Battlefront in their Combat Mission games. You can choose to play Realtime, Wego, Play by Mail, TCP or hotseat.

I wish more games offered more options for style of play.

I can only presume more games don't use wego due to increased production times..... which impacts cost and profit.

As consumers we get what we are willing to settle for.

[Curtis Lemay]

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

Second Front, please please. Maybe Steel Tigers but I expect that it will tread familiar ground...

[MrsWargamer]

I won't say I won't get a game, but I will say I plan to get Second Front regardless of whatever else I might be indulging. It's a done sale. The price is not relevant.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

Second Front, please please. Maybe Steel Tigers but I expect that it will tread familiar ground...

I hope so. Though one big negative for Second Front for me is it being abstract Squad\Half Squad mechanic instead of individual soldiers. This stops it being the tactical wargame that does everything I really want. I so want ST to be THE one which it should have a chance of being the one IF it takes Steel Panthers as the foundation then use the power of modern PC's to enhance and expand it's depth and obviously graphics, maybe drop IGOUGO for WEGO, new urban combat features etc it in the perfect world will be the one, but for some reason I'm not confident, it's Grigsby and Billings being involved that is the spark for my hope.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: wodin
So please someone start work on a monster tactical wargame or an innovative tactical wargame design, or both in one game. A monster innovative tactical wargame. Yes please.

Second Front, please please. Maybe Steel Tigers but I expect that it will tread familiar ground...

I hope Steel Tigers will be WEGO. For tactical games, WEGO is fun.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

[z1812]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

I had to smile at the original answer from Curtis Lemay. The visual it conjured up for me was Allied and Axis Generals writing notes to one another asking "Is it my turn or yours?".

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: z1812

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm still waiting for someone to provide hard evidence that WEGO produces better results than IGOUGO. Till then, it's a religion.

Very hard to answer, indeed.

I had to smile at the original answer from Curtis Lemay. The visual it conjured up for me was Allied and Axis Generals writing notes to one another asking "Is it my turn or yours?".

So...you have HARD EVIDENCE for WEGO working better than IGOYGO? Or are you just one of the priests of WEGO?

WEGO replaces the shortcomings of IGOYGO with different - possibly worse - shortcomings of its own.

Plenty of theories sound really good on paper. But how they actually model reality ought to be what matters.

Where's the evidence for it?

[MrsWargamer]

For me, WEGO eliminates some 'gamey' aspects of gaming. My favourite example is the Kubel blitz trick in Steel Panthers. That just isn't possible in WEGO.

I don't propose that WEGO is magically better or superior, any more than apples are better than oranges.

But there are a lot of elements of IGOUGO that don't exist in WEGO, and sometimes that's a plus. I also don't think much of most of RTS. But I think Close Combat does it ok. I'm not a fan of building factories to spawn and swarm in a wargame. Any wargame. It's the central weakness of Civ type games too.

I am not a programmer, so I can't comment on whether it is hard to code WEGO. And as I am mainly a board game wargamer, I'm used to games designed around a fixed turn structure. Man though, would ASL ever be cool if it was WEGO.