Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

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GibClaret80
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by GibClaret80 »

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

In the new v4 scenarios the UK doesn't have a strat bomber and the Axis start with more AA on their cities.

As for the sub war... it was beaten by 1942 by the Allies. Well I should say the UK. The USA was stubborn and didnt listen until they took an ass whooping. Sub warfare later in the war is more about the threat of sub warfare forcing the Allied player to keep on his toes. They have to expend a lot more production protecting their lines just from the threat of attack. If you disband all your subs they don't have to buy MMs or Escorts.

I might make an adjustment to submarine cost for the Germans this beta patch. I have to test some things.

The 2nd happy time for the U-boats was in 1942 up to at least May/June Alvaro
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by Journier »

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

Right.
Has anybody in a game ever produced an equivalent of 1000 Uboats during beta tests or afterwards?
With hindsight we all know, that the Eastern Front is the place, where the war will be decided.
Uboat production must have a payback to be justified.
And I have not enough game experience to give an answer. [;)]

what is the true meaning of a submarine group in game? number wise
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by battlevonwar »

Some of the biggest threats to the British were right after Fall of France/Low Countries/Norway and entry of Italy. The British couldn't use the Suez Canal but had to go around the Cape. ~Britannica.com


A historical u-boat war doesn't seem the best option and maybe historically it wasn't the best option. The point is making it entertaining, fit in the game and be somewhat historic. The UK's production which it primarily effects isn't all that important vs the cost to stop it. You probably could exercise a successful U-boat campaign in game if you want to spend but cost vs benefit is difficult to measure as being worth it. Again you have to fight other places, it costs oil. Just played a multiplayer game where I've lost 50% of my U-boat force by June 1940 to Allied Escorts/Airstrikes. I will not bother investing hundreds of production into fighting him this way. Counter intuitive. I think trying to fight him at sea was in fact a waste of resources. I sank maybe 30-40 merchants in exchange for half my U-boat force.

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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by AlvaroSousa »

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

It means if a player can build as many submarines.

Production here has to mirror a degree of game balance. A player if given more production without ties will just produce more of what they think it is working and functional (and the only feat about submarines is the fact they take a low logistic value).
So if more production was given to supposedly build submarines, probably that production will be redirected into tanks and stuka factories.

Unless a game envision factories that are specialized and just produce what they're designed and tooled for (best of luck to retool a shipyard into making tanks) or some form of soft cap (ie: 25% production to ground units, 25% to air units and 25% to naval units, and the rest 25% is free to assign -- as example) no German player will build submarines if they have the even remote feeling their campaign against the Soviets will be compromised.

Oh I read archivable. Yes it is achievable
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by Simulacra53 »

ORIGINAL: TrogusP96

The Germans were able to do both and the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't won until the two convoy battles fought in April 1943. I've already quoted in another thread the impact of escort production on landing craft production. The war for the Western Allies was at sea and in the air in terms of effort and expenditures in the aggregate and over time. There would be no Overlord without success in those areas. if its abstracted then why not just play Russia Campaign. of course you can argue that it was the decisive campaign so then why not abstract or drop the Western Allies entirely if that is the determinative logic.

Well put.
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by AlvaroSousa »

25 total with 15 being at sea at any one time.
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Meteor2
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by Meteor2 »

Ohhhh... My fault... achievable, of course.
My question is, if I would go the historical path and try to build 1000 Uboats in 5 years,
will this hinder the army or airforce build-up so significantly, that hardly anything else can be achieved.
And 1000 boats means 70 - 80 groups in game equivalents.
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by AlvaroSousa »

You can the costs in Beta dropped from 200 to 120. We will see how that tests.
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by tigercub »

1942 was called the happy time by the Germans Uboat commanders the Allies started winning the UBoat war in may 1943 after large convoy battles HX229 and SC122! this is when it all changed (losing 42 UBoats)! Just saying!
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Taxman66
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by Taxman66 »

1942 was 'happy time' only because idiot US Admiralty refused to listen to UK advice and properly set up convoys, coastal cities took too long a while to implement black outs, etc...
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by AlbertN »

The Allied won the BfA in '43 though. (As per, the submarines were suffering losses too high for too thin results)

It was just the early of '42 - roughly the very first 3-6 months where indeed the USA were just fresh to the war and the Uboot achieved astonishing successess.
The point is that anyhow cannot be replicated here in the game.
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by tigercub »

there is still many problems with UBoats in game you may able to build but you cannot build the as you need all the production for the Russian! so you will not see a new sub until the end of 41 or early 42 this is just crazy!!!!
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RE: Strategic Bombing and Sub Warfare

Post by Simulacra53 »

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

The Allied won the BfA in '43 though. (As per, the submarines were suffering losses too high for too thin results)

It was just the early of '42 - roughly the very first 3-6 months where indeed the USA were just fresh to the war and the Uboot achieved astonishing successess.
The point is that anyhow cannot be replicated here in the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time

”For several months, none of the recommendations were followed. Coastal shipping continued to sail along marked routes and burn normal navigation lights. Boardwalk communities ashore were only 'requested' to 'consider' turning their illuminations off on 18 December 1941, but not in the cities; they did not want to offend the tourism, recreation and business sectors.[3] :p186 On 12 January 1942, Admiral Andrews was warned that "three or four U-boats" were about to commence operations against coastal shipping (in fact there were three),[3]:p212 but he refused to institute a convoy system on the grounds that this would only provide the U-boats with more targets.

When the first wave of U-boats returned to port through the early part of February, Dönitz wrote that each commander "had such an abundance of opportunities for attack that he could not by any means utilize them all: there were times when there were up to ten ships in sight, sailing with all lights burning on peacetime courses."

A significant flaw in U.S. pre-war planning was the failure to provide ships suitable for convoy-escort work. Escort vessels travel at relatively slow speeds; carry a large number of depth charges; must be highly maneuverable; and must stay on station for long periods. The fleet destroyers equipped for high speed and offensive action that were available were not the ideal design for this type of escort work. When the war started, the U.S. had no equivalent of the more effective British Black Swan-class sloops or the River-class frigate in their inventory. This blunder was highly surprising since the American Navy (USN) had previously been involved in anti-submarine work in the Atlantic (see USS Reuben James) and at the time was marginally aggravated by the loss of the destroyers "loaned" to Britain through Lend-Lease; however, these vessels would have been largely obsolete for anti-submarine purposes due to their counter-attack vulnerability and inherent inability to maneuver as required to combat submarines. The U.S. also lacked both aircraft suitable for anti-submarine patrol and any aircrew trained to use them at that time.”

There are many ways to include this in a game, but you can also choose to ignore it for sake of some generic play balance.
But like with so many things, technology, tactics, doctrines, etc.

At some point you end up with Risk and not a WW2 ETO game.
Just like the air war bringing its own challenges to model historically yet fun enough for both sides to play, same with the war at sea - with Submarines bringing their own challenges and needless to say the war on land.

Where these games all break down in their “historical” component is the fear of asymmetry - and understandably so.
Game balance and 20/20 hindsight are like the sound barrier of wargaming.
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