The "infantry problem"

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
Aren't infantry units a bit too easy to destroy with small arms fire when they are dug in or in hard cover?
Also, I have a distinct impression that at the same time heavy weapons are ineffective. Like, high and vhigh damage weapons would probably make quite mess of a squad hiding in a house?

I'm not sure about small arms fire.

Thing is that small arms fire accuracy is non-linear.

The problem was the reason for ACR program:
https://youtu.be/EPm7eDFeaFs?t=221

Particularly this graph shows how brutal the accuracy drop is under combat stress. This is against kneeling rifleman target:
https://youtu.be/EPm7eDFeaFs?t=274

But it also shows that in CQB accuracy should be also higher than it is now.

In AB it's impossible to have a weapon with accuracy of 50% at 50m, 20% at 100m, 10% at 300m and 5% at 600m.

With poorly trained troops it should be even worse. Like, there was that thing in 2004 where Mahdi Army tried to take a city hall in Karbala defended by, like, 30 Polish and Bulgarian soldiers for 3 nights and they took losses of 80+ killed while failing to even wound a single defender with small arms. One Bulgarian soldier was lightly injured by a mortar shell.
In Armored Brigade the defenders would get wiped out by poorly trained militia.

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

But I do think heavy weapons are not that effective against covered infantry.

Heavy weapons like GL, RR, and thermobaric warheads should have very good damage against infantry inside the building or bunker. Especially thermobaric like RPO should have more damage bonus when infantry is inside the closed structure when compared to open-top cover or open terrain. (But of course, once they 'hit')

During Falkland war, Brit paratroopers used Milan against Argentine fortified position and bunkers. Current AI of AB seems not designed to use ATGM or AT rockets against infantry in the building or cover. I guess it might be good to give very low chance of using ATGM/AT rockets to infantry in the building. Or, include an option in SOP for all units, to use AT weapon against infantry in the cover or not, and give 3 options for that SOP: none (no chance) / conservatively (low chance) / actively (high chance)

50cal should be able to penetrate light building, and autocannon should be able to penetrate heavy building as well. Eventually, I wish they introduce HP to building / structure and make them destroyable during combat.

If this game introduce WP and Chemical shells, dealing infantry in cover would be come a bit easier.

Also, tank cannons and bombs. I think they are seriously under-performing now.

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

50cal should be able to penetrate light building, and autocannon should be able to penetrate heavy building as well. Eventually, I wish they introduce HP to building / structure and make them destroyable during combat.

More precisely, it would need to introduce actual buildings and structures. From what I understand, these are just tiles now.

[Gratch1111]

Depending on the situation an infantry squad/platoon would fire for 15-60 seconds if they are firing on armour and then move to new position = for heavy weapons such as AT 1-2 rounds. If only infantry of equal strength they might defend and if its squad vs platoon would try fighting withdrawal. At least that was how we did it, two rounds from AT and then move fast if against armour to next position 500-1000 m away

[Perturabo]

Speaking of infantry, why does infantry walk slowly towards cover instead of sprinting?

Also, I remember reading in various memoirs about infantry sprinting to get away from fire, including artillery fire.

[sfbaytf]

So far I've found that using smoke if available helps infantry survive once spotted. I'll dump smoke onto of my own infantry if necessary. I also try not to position infantry at the edge of town where the enemy has a long line of sight and clear fields of fire. I've found infantry to be very effective in woods. I placed them on the reverse edge opposite of the enemy advance. When the tanks foolishly advanced through the woods they suffered heavily-even falling prey to LAWS. Other tanks and AFVs advancing towards the objectives got hit in the side and rear by Dragons. When the Russian infantry did move through the woods to engage my infantry they were at a disadvantage.

My M-60A3s supporting the infantry did well engaging enemy armor and infantry. I am finding the T-62s to be pretty resilient to hits from M-60s.

[sfbaytf]

Might be worthwhile to add a shoot and scoot command for infantry.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Speaking of infantry, why does infantry walk slowly towards cover instead of sprinting?

Also, I remember reading in various memoirs about infantry sprinting to get away from fire, including artillery fire.

You mean why they use 'Advance' instead of 'Fast'? Because it's the safer type of movement. If you mean why they move so slowly, well, they use the same suppression rules as always. Usually they're under fire when moving to a cover.

[sfbaytf]

Question about buildings in general. Is there different defensive values for different types of building and construction material used? If so what different types are included? Wood, stone, brick, clay? are there any very resilient structures like buildings with very thick concrete and rebar?

I haven't play enough yet to know if multi story building are simulated.

Probably would be very complicated to implement, but underground sewers, basements and the ability of infantry and engineers to improve positions-especially buildings in urban areas and rubble would be very welcome.

[blaa]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

ORIGINAL: Panzerpanic
One of the thing that i would like to be updated and that could help is the fact that once something is spoted everyone is the AO sees it and shoot at it.
Of the spoting could be by unit and not shared that could help

Yeah that would make this game much more realistic but I guess this will not be an easy task.

Perhaps spotting at the individual unit level will be added when we will move on to the engine version 2.

That would be awesome. I agree that the instant multi-locks are a bit over the top atm, with situations like 20 units firing at a house from kilometers away while on the move cause somebody kilometers away from the firing units spotted an enemy there.

When will the engine be updated? What other changes will that bring? First time I heard of that.





Edit: "I haven't play enough yet to know if multi story building are simulated."

Well units positioned there have a very good LOS so in that sense, it´s simulated to a degree. Of course that works both ways.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Question about buildings in general. Is there different defensive values for different types of building and construction material used? If so what different types are included? Wood, stone, brick, clay? are there any very resilient structures like buildings with very thick concrete and rebar?

The smaller buildings have two categories: 'light' and 'heavy'. In addition to that there are warehouses, industrial buildings, and churches. All of them can have their unique characteristics.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: blaa

When will the engine be updated? What other changes will that bring? First time I heard of that.

The next engine will likely be in a sequel. One reason is that it's practically not possible for us to update all the existing content to be compatible with the new system. There will be announcements in the future.

[blaa]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: blaa

When will the engine be updated? What other changes will that bring? First time I heard of that.

The next engine will likely be in a sequel. One reason is that it's practically not possible for us to update all the existing content to be compatible with the new system. There will be announcements in the future.

Will there be more DLC and patches for this one or are you in full sequel mode?

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: blaa

Will there be more DLC and patches for this one or are you in full sequel mode?

The current engine is still being improved.

[ThunderLizard11]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: blaa

When will the engine be updated? What other changes will that bring? First time I heard of that.

The next engine will likely be in a sequel. One reason is that it's practically not possible for us to update all the existing content to be compatible with the new system. There will be announcements in the future.

I just bought this one and it's already being replaced?

[nikolas93TS]

We are just setting up the ground works. Keep in mind this game was released in November 2018, so by the time eventual sequel might out it won't be that "young" anymore.

[emeg]

For that I use the disabling waypoint feature. Also very usefull to create forward operating base (FOB) or entry control point (ECP waypoints for your formations and units in their advance route to chance formations or for the last given SOB instructions before the (final) attack begins.

[RooksBailey]

I just came across this "infantry problem" last night. I was really enjoying the little scratch scenario I set up when my infantry started getting plastered by an enemy armor formation. As others have related, it happened to me when my forward units, which I placed at the edge of a town, was spotted by advancing armor. Sure enough, the AI would pick a single infantry unit and pound away at it with every vehicle-mounted MG on the map. Then the AI would cycle to the next spotted infantry unit and blast away at it. It would move on to the next...and so on and so forth, with the cycle repeating over and over until all of my infantry units were broken or destroyed. It was a real immersion breaker to see that type of unrealistically instant coordination by every enemy unit on the map. I sure hope this is addressed in a forthcoming patch because it killed my enjoyment of the game last night. [:@]

Other than this issue, I have really been enjoying AB! Looking forward to improvements (to such as the above), as well as more Cold-War-Gone-Hot DLC!

[Perturabo]

Does unit size/training impact damage that infantry takes? I was playing around with 25 man minimal training/medium morale units and they tend to be suspiciously durable. Including to iron bombs.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Does unit size/training impact damage that infantry takes? I was playing around with 25 man minimal training/medium morale units and they tend to be suspiciously durable. Including to iron bombs.

The infantry unit size does affect the direct fire probability to hit, but I think it has no effect when it comes to indirect fire and bombs. Perhaps it should have, but any adjustments to the current system must be considered carefully and tested thoroughly. I think nobody has really thought of using such huge infantry units.

[wodin]

To soft infantry is why I gave up playing AB.

Games like Graviteam Tactics, Squad Battles and Combat Mission do a decent job.

[nikolas93TS]

Current infantry speed is in line with military average. When it comes to sprint standards, with or without 16kg of equipment, 60m in 8sec and 100m in 12sec is both reasonable and essential in combat. Translated to speed, that is anywhere between two and three times faster than current infantry maximum speed.

Maybe, once we are done with spotting rework, we can see how to improve infantry tactical combat. Maybe if infantry unit gets under fire while moving, it can sprint up to two squares, then it will have a slowdown period before it can do it again. The issue is how to implement this without having player micromanaging or having new commands, and how distance to the next waypoint will influence this.

New spotting chance will be increased, but there will be no Borg spotting, but it is too early for me to say how this will influence infantry combat. Maybe some kind of "cowering" will be needed.