WITP-AE 20??

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RangerJoe
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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The Myth of the Social Security Trust Fund
There is no trust fund,
.
.
.
The Social Security Act of 1935 created an “Old-Aged Reserve Account” in the Treasury and required that every year an amount determined sufficient to pay that year’s benefits was to be appropriated to it. Any of this money not needed for benefits was to be invested in federal debt (including unmarketable debt issued for this purpose) earning 3 percent interest, or other government-guaranteed debt.4

Presently, criticism arose. Winthrop Aldrich of Chase National Bank argued that the reserve would be fictitious; the government would just be issuing promissory notes to itself. As for interest on the bonds, which would supposedly help pay future benefits, the government would get the interest money from “the only source it could obtain it—the general taxpayer. The whole elaborate reserve set-up would not relieve him of any burden whatever.” Finally, the tax revenue the Treasury got in exchange for the bonds would be a standing temptation to extravagant spending.5 In his Milwaukee speech on Social Security during the 1936 presidential campaign, Republican candidate Alfred “Alf” Landon said much the same thing. It was as if, he charged, a father took deductions from his children’s wages to invest for their old age, “invested” them in “his own IOU,” and spent the money, leaving his kids nothing but those IOUs. Hence Social Security’s forced savings were “a cruel hoax.”6 President Franklin Roosevelt retorted that Social Security tax dollars “are held in a Government trust fund solely for the social security of the workers.”7

Yet attacks kept coming. Critics such as General Hugh S. Johnson, former head of the National Recovery Administration, and journalist John T. Flynn pointed out that unlike insurance companies, which invest their premiums to build a reserve to pay on their policies, the government was only issuing claims on itself. Hence the Social Security reserve was merely worthless IOUs. To pay future benefits, Americans would have to be taxed all over again.8
.
.
.
Embezzled Funds?

When in 1939 the Roosevelt administration proposed various amendments to Social Security, congressional hearings and debate on the proposals saw extensive airing of the reserve fund controversy. Critics accused the administration of “embezzlement” and repeated the charges that the reserve was merely IOUs, and that Americans would be taxed twice. No embezzlement was occurring, defenders retorted; there wouldn’t be any double taxation, and the much-maligned IOUs were the safest investment around—U.S. government bonds. They raised a valid point: holding the surplus as cash was silly, and buying private securities was not allowed. So where else could the Reserve Fund money go but into Treasuries?10 By now three years old, the reserve-fund controversy had become a serious blow to Social Security’s prestige.

On the recommendation of Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, the Social Security Amendments of 1939 created an Old Age and Survivors’ Insurance Trust Fund at the Treasury. This was done for the express purpose of ending the controversy. Testifying before the Senate Finance Committee during the hearings on the amendments, Social Security Board Chairman Arthur Altmeyer stated that the purpose of the trust fund was “to allay the unwarranted fears of some people who thought Uncle Sam was embezzling the money.”11

Creation of Social Security’s trust fund, then, was a public-relations ploy.

What happened exactly? Section 201 of the Social Security Act, “Old-Age Reserve Account,” was replaced by a new Section 201, “Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund.” The only substantial change was elimination of the transfer of revenues from the Treasury’s general fund via specific annual appropriation to the Reserve Account. Instead, a sum equivalent to the Social Security taxes received and put into the Treasury “is hereby appropriated” to the Trust Fund for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1941, “and for each fiscal year thereafter”—that is, automatically. The only other new features were a Board of Trustees (the secretaries of the treasury and labor and the chairman of the Social Security Board) to manage the fund, replacement of the 3 percent interest rate with the average rate on interest-bearing federal debt, and a provision for paying money from the fund into the Treasury to defray Social Security’s administrative expenses.

Otherwise, the Trust Fund operated just like the old Reserve Account. Indeed, it was the Reserve Account; its assets as of January 1, 1940, were transferred to the Trust Fund. Since the Reserve Account was, according to the Act, “an account in the Treasury” and the Trust Fund was “on the books of the Treasury,” the transfer was a formality. It was as if a shoebox full of bonds labeled “Reserve Account” was relabeled “Trust Fund.” Moreover, the key paragraphs of the new Section 201, for example, regarding the duties of the Trust Fund’s “Managing Trustee” (the treasury secretary) to invest the fund’s surplus in only certain types of U.S. government debt, correspond almost verbatim to paragraphs in the old one.

Social Security’s Trust Fund, then, is really a Treasury account, nothing more.
What’s a Trust Fund?
.
.
.
Though Congress legislated the Trust Fund, it is not the settlor, because a settlor puts his own property into a trust, which Congress did not do.13 As for the Board of Trustees, who in a true trust would hold the legal title to its property, Section 201 of the 1939 Amendments did not even mention its having title to anything.

Nor do the purported trust “beneficiaries” have property in the fund to which they have an enforceable property right, as beneficiaries of a true trust do. Under questioning by Representative John McCormack of Massachusetts during the 1939 hearings, Board Chairman Altmeyer revealed that Social Security maintains no accounts containing funds earmarked for individuals, and never had.14 Its accounts, then, are just record-keeping entities: file folders, not piggy banks. No individual funds necessarily means no individual property in the Trust Fund.

Section 201 said nothing about property rights—for good reason. In arguing Helvering v. Davis (1937), the Supreme Court decision that upheld Social Security’s constitutionality, Assistant Attorney General Robert Jackson stated that under Social Security, “There is no contract created by which any person becomes entitled as a matter of right to sue the United States or to maintain a claim for any particular sum of money. Not only is there no contract implied but it is expressly negatived, because it is provided in the act, section 1104, that it may be repealed, altered, or amended in any of its provisions at any time.”15

And the government’s brief for the Supreme Court case Flemming v. Nestor (1960) argued that a current or prospective Social Security beneficiary does not acquire an interest in the Trust Fund—that is, a property right to its assets—and that the belief that Social Security benefits are “fully accrued property rights” is “wholly erroneous.”16 The Court concurred.17

All this confirms the observations by Suffolk University Law School Professor Charles Rounds, a fellow of the American College of Trust and Estate Counsel:

Despite the term “trust,” the Social Security system contains nothing that remotely resembles the common law trust. There is no segregation of assets, no equitable property rights, no private right of enforcement (all characteristics of the common law trust). It is merely a system of taxation and appropriation sprinkled with trust terms to hide its true nature.18

Moreover, Social Security’s Trust Fund does not operate as a trust fund does. Social Security revenues go into the Treasury’s general fund and are automatically credited to the Trust Fund in the form of Treasury bonds. The Treasury pays Social Security benefits and administrative outlays out of general revenue and debits the Trust Fund an equivalent value of bonds. Any leftover Social Security revenue finances general government operations, with an equivalent value of bonds remaining in the Trust Fund as Social Security’s “surplus;” to cover any revenue shortfalls.19 This is how a Treasury account, not a trust fund, works. And calling a Treasury account a “trust fund” to influence public opinion does not make it one.

In all respects, then, Social Security’s Trust Fund is bogus.

The adoption of the label “trust fund” for what was in fact a Treasury account was intended to cash in on the public’s understanding of this term—that assets are absolutely safe, invested on one’s behalf, and held for one’s future use—and to reassure the public that Social Security was sound and trustworthy. It worked. The reserve controversy disappeared. Over the following decades, Social Security continued to make public-relations capital out of the term by repeatedly telling the public that benefits are paid out of a trust fund built up from their tax payments.20

https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-th ... rust-fund/
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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Last I checked we were in debt to China for 1 trillion plus two other countries (forget which [could be Japan and Britain, might have been Germany, S. Korea or the Dutch]) for 1 trillion each. The biggest debt holder is the Social Security Trust Fund and the second was the Federal Reserve. Counting other US bond holders about 15 trillion was accounted for, so only 5 trillion was foreign. This was when our debt was 20 trillion total.

You brought up the Social Security Trust Fund.
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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Yes, and it is real. You didn't show anything that said it wasn't. ????

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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

There is no Social Security Trust Fund. The Social Security taxes go into the general revenue fund. It has always been that way.


This is what you brought up. It is categorically incorrect. There is a Social Security Trust Fund and the money (FICA) does not go into the "general revenue fund". The US Treasury has to give promissory notes to the SSA in order to use that money.

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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Yes, and it is real. You didn't show anything that said it wasn't. ????

Yes, I did. Apparently your English to Gorn translator program is not working.
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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No, sorry, you did not. That case had nothing to do with whether the Social Security Trust Fund exists. Drop it already.

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RE: WITP-AE 20??

Post by Macclan5 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bodei

The biggest problem the Chinese face in a war with the US is their economy would go to hell in a hurry. We have their credit card that we've run up trillions on, we'll just tear it up. Other than Walmart being out of stock of cheap Chinese crap, China's economy will crash.

Not so fast.

1. The Chinese economy can survive the total loss of its US T-note holdings. The returns on its existing holdings is not that high and it has no impact on Chinese trade flows.

2. The real damage to the Chinese economy results from a total cessation of trade with all Western countries. It has to be total because Chinese trading with other countries would still proceed. Some of that third party trading would ultimately see Chinese product still reaching the West.

3. Not all Western countries would support the USA. NATO is a defensive alliance so unless China were to be stupid enough to launch the first attack, thereby triggering article 5 of the NATO treaty, you can rest assured that most of the European countries would not establish a meaningful trade cessation with China.

4. The entire Belt and Road initiative is to make Chinese trade flows impervious to interdiction.

5. In any confrontation, even if not a full blown military one, the CCP will play the nationalist card and the population will accept economic deprivation. You would need a lengthy economic deprivation, in the vicinity of at least 2 years, before the nationalist appeal might start to wear thin. Do you think the American public would readily put up with 2 years of pain without "victory" being in sight?



The Chinese economy does have vulnerabilities but it would take a lot for them to be fully exploited. The pain would not be one-way.

Alfred

Concur

Addendum:

1) China's holding of USD Debt / Reserves is used in the CCP "managed Float" of their currency. Some transition pain would be inflicted unless other Nations instantly accepted the Yuan at a CCP established pegged value - ignoring the implications that most everything exported is quoted in USD. However the USD Debt / Reserves are not specifically related to trade flow so long as values with other Nations can be negotiated.

2) The Belt and Road Initiative in addition to massive investments into Africa to develop a 'non US Centric - G8' global trading economy

The question many have been asking for years is when will China become a consumer economy ?

Obviously vastly out producing the intrinsic demand leaves China vulnerable to sanctions. Simply selling down the Belt and Road and to Africa will not replace US / Canada / Australia / New Zealand / German / French / etc demand.

However I agree that governmental imposed austerity would mitigate those pressures.

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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: Macclan5

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bodei

The biggest problem the Chinese face in a war with the US is their economy would go to hell in a hurry. We have their credit card that we've run up trillions on, we'll just tear it up. Other than Walmart being out of stock of cheap Chinese crap, China's economy will crash.

Not so fast.

1. The Chinese economy can survive the total loss of its US T-note holdings. The returns on its existing holdings is not that high and it has no impact on Chinese trade flows.

2. The real damage to the Chinese economy results from a total cessation of trade with all Western countries. It has to be total because Chinese trading with other countries would still proceed. Some of that third party trading would ultimately see Chinese product still reaching the West.

3. Not all Western countries would support the USA. NATO is a defensive alliance so unless China were to be stupid enough to launch the first attack, thereby triggering article 5 of the NATO treaty, you can rest assured that most of the European countries would not establish a meaningful trade cessation with China.

4. The entire Belt and Road initiative is to make Chinese trade flows impervious to interdiction.

5. In any confrontation, even if not a full blown military one, the CCP will play the nationalist card and the population will accept economic deprivation. You would need a lengthy economic deprivation, in the vicinity of at least 2 years, before the nationalist appeal might start to wear thin. Do you think the American public would readily put up with 2 years of pain without "victory" being in sight?



The Chinese economy does have vulnerabilities but it would take a lot for them to be fully exploited. The pain would not be one-way.

Alfred

Concur

Addendum:

1) China's holding of USD Debt / Reserves is used in the CCP "managed Float" of their currency. Some transition pain would be inflicted unless other Nations instantly accepted the Yuan at a CCP established pegged value - ignoring the implications that most everything exported is quoted in USD. However the USD Debt / Reserves are not specifically related to trade flow so long as values with other Nations can be negotiated.

2) The Belt and Road Initiative in addition to massive investments into Africa to develop a 'non US Centric - G8' global trading economy

The question many have been asking for years is when will China become a consumer economy ?

Obviously vastly out producing the intrinsic demand leaves China vulnerable to sanctions. Simply selling down the Belt and Road and to Africa will not replace US / Canada / Australia / New Zealand / German / French / etc demand.

However I agree that governmental imposed austerity would mitigate those pressures.

Well, I saw that China put a high tariff on Australian barley. Australia can sell the barley to other places. But I am sure that Australia can find other markets for their food. I am sure that the Australians would not mind drinking more beer.
Australian farmers caught in the middle as China expected to announce tariffs that would end barley trade

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/rural ... cy/7283520

Now, will Australia quit sending coal and iron ore to China? [8|]
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Now, will Australia quit sending coal and iron ore to China? [8|]
Just as soon as they can figure out how to squeeze the coal into diamonds. Where is Superman when we need him!
The iron ore can be sold to the US to feed all those steel mills that Mr. Trump reopened in his first year ...[;)]
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Now, will Australia quit sending coal and iron ore to China? [8|]
Just as soon as they can figure out how to squeeze the coal into diamonds. Where is Superman when we need him!
The iron ore can be sold to the US to feed all those steel mills that Mr. Trump reopened in his first year ...[;)]

No, I read where the steel mills are only running at 51% of capacity.
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




... Well, I saw that China put a high tariff on Australian barley. Australia can sell the barley to other places. But I am sure that Australia can find other markets for their food. I am sure that the Australians would not mind drinking more beer.
Australian farmers caught in the middle as China expected to announce tariffs that would end barley trade

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/rural ... cy/7283520

Now, will Australia quit sending coal and iron ore to China? [8|]

There is a very simple reason why Australia is being singled out for this treatment, and the reason isn't just the one being peddled about in the MSM viz our advocacy of an independent inquiry into the corona virus saga. Unlike most countries who trade with China, especially G20 members, Australia runs a substantial trade surplus with China. We are therefore much more vulnerable to any, however limited, trade action. In fact well before the corona virus outbreak in Wuhan itself, Australian iron ore shipments were being delayed in Chinese ports for spurious reasons.

Alfred
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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NP View: Canada isn't alone in its fight with China anymore
And it is not only America and Taiwan that the People’s Liberation Army has to worry about: skirmishes along the Chinese-Indian border have increased to the highest level since 2015, according to Indian officials, and talks aimed at lowering tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbours broke down on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, China is also involved in a diplomatic spat with Australia and seems to be going off the same playbook it used in its dispute with Canada. Canberra has led the charge for an international inquiry into Beijing’s handling of the pandemic, and successfully helped push the World Health Assembly to pass a motion to that effect earlier this week.

As punishment, Beijing banned the import of beef from several Australian processors, slapped large tariffs on Australian barley and reportedly told state-owned power plants to stop buying coal from the country.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/n ... r-BB14t6Xq
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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Somehow this looks like a giant foosball table.

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Alfred
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


...Concur

Addendum:

1) China's holding of USD Debt / Reserves is used in the CCP "managed Float" of their currency. Some transition pain would be inflicted unless other Nations instantly accepted the Yuan at a CCP established pegged value - ignoring the implications that most everything exported is quoted in USD. However the USD Debt / Reserves are not specifically related to trade flow so long as values with other Nations can be negotiated.

2) The Belt and Road Initiative in addition to massive investments into Africa to develop a 'non US Centric - G8' global trading economy

The question many have been asking for years is when will China become a consumer economy ?

Obviously vastly out producing the intrinsic demand leaves China vulnerable to sanctions. Simply selling down the Belt and Road and to Africa will not replace US / Canada / Australia / New Zealand / German / French / etc demand.

However I agree that governmental imposed austerity would mitigate those pressures.


Well ... I come from a different angle regarding your two points.

1. Chinese exports and imports will be largely denominated in $USD. It therefore does not require its trading partner to accept any CCP pegged Yuan value. The only side which has to worry about the Yuan rate is China. As you well know, the Yuan trades at an artificial rate which bears little relationship to underlying market conditions.

2. The Belt and Road initiative is not really aimed at creating markets for Chinese exports, or import sources. It is above all else aimed at bypassing the easily blockaded sea lanes of the Malacca Strait, Sunda strait and Lombok strait through which the key raw materials of oil and iron ore currently transit.. It is just an attempt to create a modern version of the old overland Silk Road route. The only really important sea aspects of the B&R are the Pakistan port and the Gulf of Thailand canal; the first to link up with the overland road and rail network directly leading back to China, the latter to bypass the SE Asian straits and thereby bring ships to within the umbrella provided by the Chinese military.

The Chinese investments in the non Western countries signed up to the B&R project are not intended to generate local purchase of Chinese products. Chinese investing companies are notorious for not employing local labour, not even for unskilled labouring tasks, instead importing their workforce from mainland China. Nor do they purchase local inputs for their production if they can source the input from China. The point of these enterprises is to reexport to the rich West and diversify their production so that any economic action taken against China can be frustrated by exporting from these enclaves. For example consider the extensive clothing production undertaken by Chinese companies in northern Italy. Place a tariff on Chinese made clothing will not automatically apply to the clothes made in Italy which, with a very straight face, all carry the label of "Made in Italy".

Alfred
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RE: WITP-AE 20??

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

NP View: Canada isn't alone in its fight with China anymore
And it is not only America and Taiwan that the People’s Liberation Army has to worry about: skirmishes along the Chinese-Indian border have increased to the highest level since 2015, according to Indian officials, and talks aimed at lowering tensions between the two nuclear-armed neighbours broke down on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, China is also involved in a diplomatic spat with Australia and seems to be going off the same playbook it used in its dispute with Canada. Canberra has led the charge for an international inquiry into Beijing’s handling of the pandemic, and successfully helped push the World Health Assembly to pass a motion to that effect earlier this week.

As punishment, Beijing banned the import of beef from several Australian processors, slapped large tariffs on Australian barley and reportedly told state-owned power plants to stop buying coal from the country.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/n ... r-BB14t6Xq
Canada's issue with China is really a US issue forced on us. The US accused Huawei of stealing technology or something along those lines and when a Huawei executive was visiting Canada, the US sent an extradition request and demanded she be arrested. Extradition treaty obligations required Canada to act, but the US did not provide any evidence to back up the arrest. The Huawei exec is being held here well over a year later and still no concrete evidence that would allow Canada to extradite her.
China is retaliating against Canadian goods it normally imports, and the US seems to be happy to let that continue rather than resolve the situation (so the US can sell more to China). That's how it looks from where I sit.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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