Midway = 1 broken radio and a bunch of flyboys who got lost
Tough to EVER simulate that combination of events as if either the Japan's search plane had called home OR the main US attack not been the position of a free bombing run due to being lost and having the poor Torpedo guys commit virtual suicide (which had the side effect of removing Japan's CAP), the results could have been quite different.
The same case could be made in reverse for the attack on Pearl. What if the fleet had not been home that day?
The problem you face in wargames is that to code in the luck factor or the super-critical hit factor which really does exist, you end up with results that go too far into the extremes ALL the time when they really should be a one-in-a-million thing. You can either have reliable consistant results that everyone agrees with as reasonable or you can have complete chaos as results swing from bad luck to super-critical rund after round and he who gets that super-critical first wins hands down. It is pretty much impossible to have both without massive complaining about things not being realistic. Realistic is your commander doing the wrong thing at the worst possible moment due to a fouled up comms message and bad intel. For all those snake eyes to be rolled one after another puts you too far into the extremes. If every game consistantly had such extreme results, they would be the norm, no longer extreme results...
The problem you face in wargames is that to code in the luck factor or the super-critical hit factor which really does exist, you end up with results that go too far into the extremes ALL the time when they really should be a one-in-a-million thing. You can either have reliable consistant results that everyone agrees with as reasonable or you can have complete chaos as results swing from bad luck to super-critical rund after round and he who gets that super-critical first wins hands down. It is pretty much impossible to have both without massive complaining about things not being realistic. Realistic is your commander doing the wrong thing at the worst possible moment due to a fouled up comms message and bad intel. For all those snake eyes to be rolled one after another puts you too far into the extremes. If every game consistantly had such extreme results, they would be the norm, no longer extreme results... [/B][/QUOTE]
>I don´t know, but I have the impression that the old Pacific War resulted in better results of CV battles, as far as balance results is of concern. Is there anyone who plays the PW Matrix Edition? What are your opinions? And what kind of results are you obtaining in your battles, Mt Fragg? The trouble is that even the most UV addicted guys probably didn´t have more than 20-30 CV battles vs human up to now, and this using many versions, so it´s dificult to get the big picture. Maybe that´s why there isn´t much complain. Maybe I´m too fixared in historical realism....I don´t know.
Originally posted by afenelon
The trouble is that even the most UV addicted guys probably didn´t have more than 20-30 CV battles vs human up to now, and this using many versions, so it´s dificult to get the big picture. Maybe that´s why there isn´t much complain. Maybe I´m too fixared in historical realism....I don´t know.
Isn't it funny - you say you want ultimate "historic realism", and say that most experienced UV players had like 20-30 human vs. human CV battles so far, which, for you, is too little, and yet...
... how many CV battles were there historically? Let's see... 3? Or 4? Midway, Santa Cruz, Coral Sea... ummm? Anything post-43 was too one sided to really matter.
So you want game system to "ultimately" represent the "historic realism" of results of those 3-4 battles, even when you play 10s or 100s of experiments in a game? Interesting.
Of course you'll get "ahistorical" results! Get used to it. That's what wargames are made for.
Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko Isn't it funny - you say you want ultimate "historic realism", and say that most experienced UV players had like 20-30 human vs. human CV battles so far, which, for you, is too little, and yet...
... how many CV battles were there historically? Let's see... 3? Or 4? Midway, Santa Cruz, Coral Sea... ummm? Anything post-43 was too one sided to really matter.
So you want game system to "ultimately" represent the "historic realism" of results of those 3-4 battles, even when you play 10s or 100s of experiments in a game? Interesting.
Of course you'll get "ahistorical" results! Get used to it. That's what wargames are made for.
O.
-From this poin t you´re right. Game authors don´t have an adequate sample to make an "historical engine". Furthermore, there wasn´t no Super CV battles, so it can´t be modeled in UV. Still, it i strange that too much battles are ending in "total victories" with 0 losses for the winner side. This didn´t happened even in the Turkey shot (where half og IJN CV´s survived). The question is not to get "ahistorical results", but to get only ahistorical results.
And here is the result of a fourth battle (me IJN vs. AI USN). IJN: 4CV´s (Sho, Zui, Junyo, Hyio) plus 2CVL´s (Ryujo and Zuiho) plus 1 CVE (Unyo) vs. USN 4 CV´s (Enterprise, Hornet, Saratoga, Wasp). Again (3/4 battles) the US Super CAP ran away and again (3/4) battles, the USN bombers didn´t retaliate. And of course, there isn´t anything wrong with the game engine......Here are the results (scen#14 distance 6 hexes)
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 10/17/42
Weather: Overcast
Air attack on Lae , at 9,33
Allied aircraft
A-20B Havoc x 6
no losses
Runway hits 3
Attacking Level Bombers:
6 x A-20B Havoc at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Lae , at 9,33
Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 15
F-5A Lightning x 4
B-17E Fortress x 35
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 73
Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 53
Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
4 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
5 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
7 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 51
A6M3 Zero x 4
D3A Val x 66
B5N Kate x 47
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 130
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 12 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
D3A Val x 15 destroyed
D3A Val x 14 damaged
B5N Kate x 20 destroyed
B5N Kate x 24 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 24 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10 damaged
LT L. Barnard of VF-2 is credited with kill number 7
LT M. Hidaka of CII-1 Daitai bails out and is CAPTURED
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
DD Farragut
DD Farenholt
CA Australia, Bomb hits 1
CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 1
DD Morris, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL Hobart
DD Gridley, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Jarvis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
-Comment: 130 fighters and almost 90 ran away. IJN suffered very few losses given the Super CAP. It seems some USN squadrons were on LR-CAP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
D3A Val x 17
B5N Kate x 9
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 38
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
D3A Val x 7 destroyed
D3A Val x 8 damaged
B5N Kate x 3 destroyed
B5N Kate x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
PO2 O.Banno of DII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1
DD Balch
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Lae , at 9,33
Allied aircraft
Hudson x 11
Beaufort x 10
P-40E Warhawk x 13
F-5A Lightning x 2
B-25D Mitchell x 12
B-26B Marauder x 56
P-39D Airacobra x 10
Attacking Level Bombers:
11 x Hudson at 6000 feet
16 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
12 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
16 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
12 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
10 x Beaufort at 6000 feet
12 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Port Moresby , at 10,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
A6M3 Zero x 16
J1N1-R Irving x 1
Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 19
P-40E Warhawk x 44
P-39D Airacobra x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 4 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra x 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra x 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk x 6 destroyed
PO2 M. Endo of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Shortland Island at 29,34
Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 7
A6M2 Zero x 22
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged
Japanese Ships
DD Shikinami
Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 37,35
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 52
A6M3 Zero x 12
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 27
SBD Dauntless x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 3 destroyed
PO1 S. Kitahata of DII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Ships
CV Shokaku
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 37,35
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 50
A6M3 Zero x 12
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 61
SBD Dauntless x 6
B-26B Marauder x 3
B-17E Fortress x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 4 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5 damaged
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 6 damaged
B-26B Marauder x 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 2 damaged
PO1 S. Kitahata of DII-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3
Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku
CV Hiyo
CV Junyo
CVL Ryujo
Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 6000 feet
Comments: The largest attack against IJN CV´s came from Lunga
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 47
D3A Val x 46
B5N Kate x 17
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 41
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 8 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 7 destroyed
D3A Val x 19 damaged
B5N Kate x 8 destroyed
B5N Kate x 13 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4 damaged
LT F.Lee of VF-71 is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Wasp, on fire
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 2
CL Phoenix
CLAA Van Heemskerck
-Comment: fatigue started to affect IJN too, more than 50% of bombers ran away, along with Zeroes and F4F´s. It seems all sides gave up fighting...quite realistic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7
B5N Kate x 12
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 6 destroyed
B5N Kate x 6 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 destroyed
LTJG R.Koizumi of DI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 2
Allied Ships
CV Hornet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
B5N Kate x 7
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 7 damaged
For the most part I would have to agree with afenelon.
IMHO 2.30 is much more bloody, and more often then not when engaged in a CV battle, the winning side will usually obtain an overwhelming victory!
Fatigue is prob over done, even if your tired as hell you will fight when it's for your life!
Later,
Lrfss
-Hmmm...althought CV battles in v2.30 are bloodier, air combat irself isn´t so bloody. This result in higher CV´s losses. And you´re right on fatigue. It´s laughable to have CAP fleeing from combat when the CV´s are being attacked. When a outgunned P-39 runs from Zeroes while defending its airfield, both the P-39 and the airfield can survive to fight another day. Obviously that situation is VERY diferent from that where a F4F is defending its home carrier. The pilots are expected to fight to death, because they won´t have a place to land if CV´s are sunk. And bombers always retaliate even if poorly escorted. The victory in Midway was obtained by unescorted bombers.....in UV world, both the TBD´s and SBD´s would have dropped their bombs and returned home when they saw there wouldn´t be fighter escort....
Originally posted by afenelon -Hmmm...althought CV battles in v2.30 are bloodier, air combat irself isn´t so bloody. This result in higher CV´s losses. And you´re right on fatigue. It´s laughable to have CAP fleeing from combat when the CV´s are being attacked. When a outgunned P-39 runs from Zeroes while defending its airfield, both the P-39 and the airfield can survive to fight another day. Obviously that situation is VERY diferent from that where a F4F is defending its home carrier. The pilots are expected to fight to death, because they won´t have a place to land if CV´s are sunk. And bombers always retaliate even if poorly escorted. The victory in Midway was obtained by unescorted bombers.....in UV world, both the TBD´s and SBD´s would have dropped their bombs and returned home when they saw there wouldn´t be fighter escort....
Or they slaughtered without scoring a single hit.
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
-Repeated my battle #3 with opponent changing his CAP from LR to 60%, to see if it was the cause of the result. Still, USN bombers failed to attack IJN carriers, and much more than 40% F4F´s took part in raids against Lunga (they escorted LB bombers). It´s becoming more evident we really have a bug here.
Here are the results. The overall result was somewhat diferent-only three USN carriers sunk immediately (and the Wasp is damaged-but being hit by two torpedos and four bombs, I doubt he will survive)
Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
6 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
6 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
9 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
6 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
6 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-25D Mitchell at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Taivu , at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
no losses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 26
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty x 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 24 damaged
Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
AK Etamin
MSW Whyalla, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Lamson
DD Farragut
Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 6
G4M1 Betty x 34
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell x 1 destroyed
G3M Nell x 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty x 5 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 41 damaged
Allied Ships
DD Perkins, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hammann
CL Honolulu
AP American Legion
AP President Adams
DD Alwin, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Mugford, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
1 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell x 3 destroyed
G3M Nell x 14 damaged
Allied Ships
AP Pierce
AP La Salle
DD Jarvis
DD Balch
Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
1 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 8
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell x 1 destroyed
G3M Nell x 8 damaged
Allied Ships
CL St. Louis, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
A6M3 Zero x 14
D3A Val x 53
B5N Kate x 74
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 39
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 1 damaged
D3A Val x 18 destroyed
D3A Val x 23 damaged
B5N Kate x 30 destroyed
B5N Kate x 38 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
LTJG F. Register of VF-6 is credited with kill number 5
Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Wasp
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Quincy
CLAA Juneau, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 1
DD Bagley
DD Cummings
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
D3A Val x 19
B5N Kate x 13
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val x 3 destroyed
D3A Val x 11 damaged
B5N Kate x 7 destroyed
B5N Kate x 9 damaged
LTJG R. Shackford of VF-2 is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Atlanta
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
A6M3 Zero x 13
D3A Val x 54
B5N Kate x 36
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 18
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 2 destroyed
D3A Val x 7 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 14 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2 damaged
LTJG G. Kirk of VF-8 is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Wasp, Bomb hits 2
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Hornet, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Diego
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
D3A Val x 23
B5N Kate x 15
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 damaged
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 1 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 destroyed
LTJG H. Gustafson of VF-8 is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, on fire, heavy damage
DD Buchanan
CV Saratoga, on fire, heavy damage
CV Wasp
CLAA Juneau, Bomb hits 1, on fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40
Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 30
Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 1 destroyed
SBD Dauntless x 7 damaged
Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 91
Guns lost 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 7
G4M1 Betty x 19
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell x 7 damaged
G4M1 Betty x 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty x 20 damaged
Allied Ships
CL Achillies, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Hull
MSW Wollongong, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Canberra, Torpedo hits 2
DD Phelps, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
3 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
3 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
4 x G4M1 Betty at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Taivu at 39,40
Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 3
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell x 1 destroyed
G3M Nell x 2 damaged
Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, on fire
Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x G3M Nell at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
A6M3 Zero x 17
D3A Val x 34
B5N Kate x 24
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 4 destroyed
B5N Kate x 2 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 3 damaged
ENS B.Short of VF-71 is credited with kill number 2
Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, on fire, heavy damage
CV Hornet, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 25
B5N Kate x 15
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero x 1 destroyed
D3A Val x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
LT I.Kelly of VF-71 is credited with kill number 2
Allied Ships
CV Hornet, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 36
D3A Val x 39
B5N Kate x 21
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 13
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 9 destroyed
LTJG C.Kamisaka of BI-1 Daitai is credited with kill number 3
Allied Ships
CV Hornet, on fire, heavy damage
CV Enterprise, on fire, heavy damage
CV Saratoga, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 40,40
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9
B5N Kate x 5
Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 3 damaged
Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat x 1 damaged
It was pointed out to me on a diff board that if the US CV TF was on a coastal hex which it was 1 hex SW Lunga Port/coastal hex that this would reduce CAP by 50%?
Also if the enemy CV Cap was 2:1 or more then the escorts with a plane durabilty of less than 56, no missions for the US would go Vs enemy CV TF?
The rules regarding CV air missions differ from Land based air missions.
The durability issue was specifically added to bring the non B-17/B-24 into a slightly more reasonable use.
Low durability NON-CV aircraft will not generally attack targets at range without escort along for the ride. This was a very needed fix.
The halved air mission fix was another dramatic change to patch 2.30 to deal with the realities of CV operations. You can't very well steam into the wind at full speed to launch all your aircraft on an attack then race at full speed at the destination of that same attack to reduce the range your planes have to fly on the return leg then again turn and steam into the wind at full speed to let you planes land in restricted waters. This change was to resolve the situation where people were parking their CV's in base hexes and having the Base's CAP augmented by CV CAP to the point of total immunity.
Now, back to the fatigue issue (not your post but why start another eh?)
Reducing your LR CAP (100%) to 60% CAP (while helping a little) is not going to make any major difference overall. 60% of your fighters flying at all times makes for tired pilots. Ground you pilots, let them nap, get the fatigue down, THEN set you cap to a reasonable level. The 2.30 patch CV suicide code was greatly adjusted to make folks who used the old tactic of putting up a stone wall of 500000 fighters while they grounded all their bombers and waited for the poor other guy to get suckered into loosing 100% of their aircraft no longer a valid tactic. You are seeing the results of this fix. You are still playing with pre-2.30 tactics. THEY DO NOT WORK in 2.30. Quit driving yourself insane and adopt real CV strategies that were used at the time and you will see very nice, consistant, normal results.
The days of the US player being able to park their CV's at PM in the harbor and destroy every plane Japan owns are over.
It was pointed out to me on a diff board that if the US CV TF was on a coastal hex which it was 1 hex SW Lunga Port/coastal hex that this would reduce CAP by 50%?
Also if the enemy CV Cap was 2:1 or more then the escorts with a plane durabilty of less than 56, no missions for the US would go Vs enemy CV TF?
So could this combo create situation #3?
Just a thought someone else (AA) had.
Later,
Lrfss
-Maybe that´s a good explanation. But this is poor design. Just my opinion....(well, may agree with that rule on coastal hex but the others is ridiculous)
The rules regarding CV air missions differ from Land based air missions.
The durability issue was specifically added to bring the non B-17/B-24 into a slightly more reasonable use.
Low durability NON-CV aircraft will not generally attack targets at range without escort along for the ride. This was a very needed fix.
The halved air mission fix was another dramatic change to patch 2.30 to deal with the realities of CV operations. You can't very well steam into the wind at full speed to launch all your aircraft on an attack then race at full speed at the destination of that same attack to reduce the range your planes have to fly on the return leg then again turn and steam into the wind at full speed to let you planes land in restricted waters. This change was to resolve the situation where people were parking their CV's in base hexes and having the Base's CAP augmented by CV CAP to the point of total immunity.
Now, back to the fatigue issue (not your post but why start another eh?)
Reducing your LR CAP (100%) to 60% CAP (while helping a little) is not going to make any major difference overall. 60% of your fighters flying at all times makes for tired pilots. Ground you pilots, let them nap, get the fatigue down, THEN set you cap to a reasonable level. The 2.30 patch CV suicide code was greatly adjusted to make folks who used the old tactic of putting up a stone wall of 500000 fighters while they grounded all their bombers and waited for the poor other guy to get suckered into loosing 100% of their aircraft no longer a valid tactic. You are seeing the results of this fix. You are still playing with pre-2.30 tactics. THEY DO NOT WORK in 2.30. Quit driving yourself insane and adopt real CV strategies that were used at the time and you will see very nice, consistant, normal results.
The days of the US player being able to park their CV's at PM in the harbor and destroy every plane Japan owns are over.
-Agree with you that this rule in v2.20 needed correction. But there was clearly an overcorrection here. The current system makes US CAP too ineffective and also seems to make US bombers not to attack with alarming frequence. On the other hand, it should be noticed that IJN bomber losses were really very heavy. Just see what happened in the Santa Cruz battle. And that tatic of putting many fighters in CAP to devastate incoming fighters was really used in the Turkey shot by the USN. Would it be useful if the USN still had F4F´s and the Japanese still had their veteran pilots? We don´t know, because the USA never went to battle more than 2 CV´s in the same TF in 1942. The loss of swarms of Vals and Kates would be quite predictable had the USN placed 5 CV´s in the same TF in 1942. On the fatigue, it must be said that the level of fatigue we access is that from the end of the day phase. When we start the first round of combat the pilots probably have lower levels due to rest in the night phase (they sleep, right?), and so, I don´think high CAP levels should make the fighter´s performance so pathetic.
-On the coastal rule, you are right, but to compensate for this, there should be a "special reaction" rule allowing the CV´s to get out from the harbor if they are threatened by other TF. We don´t expect a commander to stay in port waiting for having his carriers to be slaughtered
Agree with you that this rule in v2.20 needed correction. But there was clearly an overcorrection here. The current system makes US CAP too ineffective and also seems to make US bombers not to attack with alarming frequence.
No, as I have explained, your USE of CV's makes them that way.
coastal rule, you are right, but to compensate for this, there should be a "special reaction" rule allowing the CV´s to get out from the harbor if they are threatened by other TF. We don´t expect a commander to stay in port waiting for having his carriers to be slaughtered
Absolutely not! once again, you are turning 1942 into 2003 as far as carrier and aircraft performance. CV's doen't just JUMP out of port and magically launch all their aircraft in 3 hours! This rule was added because it was so totally unacceptable and silly.
You have 300 planes with bombs. (For simplicities sake: this is about the same between Japan & USA - I am factoring in ships likely to be around in the first 100 days here)
If you are the USA, these 300 planes are devided up over 8 CV and 3 CVL
If you are Japan, these 300 planes are devided up over 6 CV
300 / 11 = 27 planes per ship
300 / 6 = 50 planes per ship
Assuming equal CAP levels and AA losses (which favour the USA later in the game), we eliminate 90% of the aircraft (just keeping it nice and simple again)
27 - 90% = 3
50 - 90% = 5
Now, the odds on the USA side are that those 3 hits per ship will be bombs, not torpedos as the percentage of USA bomb vs torpedo is fairly high. Japan on the other hand, of those 5 hits per ship, half of them will be bombs and half torpedo. Torpedoes are more likely to sink ships then bombs.
This is why Super CV battles turn out the way they do. The game prioritizes targeting against CV/CVL/CVE. This fact is WHY you see the results you see.
Until this is offset later in the game by the second generation aircraft that bail the USA out of the automatic loss catagory, there is nothing you can do to change this. Until then, it will always be a game of craps with the house rules favouring he who can stuff more CV's into the TF.
Originally posted by Mr.Frag Let me try explaining this another way:
You have 300 planes with bombs. (For simplicities sake: this is about the same between Japan & USA - I am factoring in ships likely to be around in the first 100 days here)
If you are the USA, these 300 planes are devided up over 8 CV and 3 CVL
If you are Japan, these 300 planes are devided up over 6 CV
300 / 11 = 27 planes per ship
300 / 6 = 50 planes per ship
Assuming equal CAP levels and AA losses (which favour the USA later in the game), we eliminate 90% of the aircraft (just keeping it nice and simple again)
27 - 90% = 3
50 - 90% = 5
Now, the odds on the USA side are that those 3 hits per ship will be bombs, not torpedos as the percentage of USA bomb vs torpedo is fairly high. Japan on the other hand, of those 5 hits per ship, half of them will be bombs and half torpedo. Torpedoes are more likely to sink ships then bombs.
This is why Super CV battles turn out the way they do. The game prioritizes targeting against CV/CVL/CVE. This fact is WHY you see the results you see.
Until this is offset later in the game by the second generation aircraft that bail the USA out of the automatic loss catagory, there is nothing you can do to change this. Until then, it will always be a game of craps with the house rules favouring he who can stuff more CV's into the TF.
This is just about the biggest crock of nonsense I've ever seen posted.
I hardly know where to begin, but I think the best recommendation is to review the actual ships and air groups available in the game. In sc. 17, the Japanese have 2 CVs and a CVL with 50 A6M2, 43 D3A, and 46 B5N. The Allies have 2 CVs with 38 F4F-3, 74 SBD, and 24 TBD. Japanese pilots are superior. Obvious advantage to the Japanese (but watch out for those SBDs). The balance tilts back a little with the arrival of F4F-4s and augmentation of the US carrier fighter groups to 36 aircraft each. The Allies have a tiny window of opportunity when their third and fourth carriers show up toward the end of June, but this disappears when the Japanese "Midway" carriers arrive shortly thereafter. Later, Allied pilots and aircraft are better and sheer numbers begin to tell (add in the vast Allied LBA resources, and the handwriting is on the wall for the Japanese if they haven't done well in the early going and established a strategically defensible position and a significant VP lead).
The bottom line is this. The Allies, whose strategic position improves with time, need to be careful in the early going and pick their opportunities, hoping that luck doesn't run strongly against them. A Japanese carrier sunk in the early going is money in the bank for the Allies. From the Japanese perspective, the American carriers are bigger (and, thus, more valuable) and eventually will be better protected by AA and CAP. The TBF is a lethal anti-shipping weapon to be dealt with, as well. You've got to whittle the US CVs down in the early going, because you likely won't get the chance later on. There is incentive, therefore, for both sides to seek early engagements, but they have to be on your terms and at odds that favor your success.
This is one of the greatest things about UV. It models this aspect of the historical campaign perfectly and presents the players with great challenges and opportunities. In this regard, at least, I see nothing in the game engine that needs the slightest change.
Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.
Originally posted by Mr.Frag
No, as I have explained, your USE of CV's makes them that way.
-Hmmmm, in 4 battles I used my CV wrongly one time, two USN human opponents used them wrong two times (one each) and the AI used it wrong a fourth time, it seems you´re the only who know the secret of correct use of US CV´s. I keep that high CAP levels are a reasonable choice when you´re have 4-5 US CVN´s. On the other hand, this high levels shouldn´t be as effective as they were in v2.2. That´s because the % CAP don´t imply in having this % of your AF flying at a given time. This is a sum of (1) planes who are flying at a giving moment and (2) planes who are armed and refueled to take off as an attack is detected. So it will very difficult to have all the planes you put on CAP airborne to intercept an incoming raid (except, maybe in the first wave), as we have in v2.2 (because those planes must land to refuel, and carriers must be in correct position to launch all carriers and launching of fighters must be coordinated with launching of bombers). So, a player with 150 fighters and 90% CAP should never have 135 planes able to fight the enemy at a given moment. He shouls have, maybe 80% of those 90% (108), and this must decrease at each attack wave. Sucessive waves of attack must disorganize the enemy CAP (remeber Midway) to such an extent that even poorly escorted bombers should be able to get some hits. On fatigue, even with high levels of CAP, the fatigue level of pilots shouldn´t be so high because few pilots are flying combat missions and some of them are flying just a % of the day. So, CV to CV combat should be bloody for both sides, as far as air losses are of concern, but also bloody for CV losses as usually both sides are able to attack and score a few hits (and in the 4 CV battles in 1942, all the sides were able to sink or damage enemy ships in all the battles)
Absolutely not! once again, you are turning 1942 into 2003 as far as carrier and aircraft performance. CV's doen't just JUMP out of port and magically launch all their aircraft in 3 hours! This rule was added because it was so totally unacceptable and silly.
-A good point if you assumes the carrier to be docked (but in this case it shouldn´t be able to launch any aircraft at all). However, in #3, the enemy was just passing near a beaxh hex. He should be able to move out of that position and launch his planes...
USA can place EXACTLY 216 Dive Bombers and 85 Torpedo Bombers against 11 Targets.
Japan can place EXACTLY 175 Dive Bombers and 213 Torpedo Bombers against 6 Targets.
The 210 USA Fighters cancel out the 233 Japan Fighters. USA AA advantage will negate the extra planes Japan has, bringing us right back to EXACTLY what I posted, 300 planes on target by each side. Want some more math lessons?
Now, as I stated, torpedoes are more effective at sinking ships the bombs for obvious reasons. This is somewhat mitigated by the USA use of larger bombs, but as you can see from the EXACT numbers of planes, Japan has a MUCH better chance of sticking multiple torpedoes into your CV then you have of sticking bombs through the deck all the way down to the waterline to cause the same desired goal of letting the water in
When you couple this with the higher number of planes concentrated on the target CV due to the USA having less CV's to target, you come to see exactly why UV playes the way it does and start thinking that it is a really good thing that Midway happened, putting all those Torpedo Bombers out of the picture.
It is not until the arrival of the true Fleet CV's that the USA in is a position to flaunt it's fleet at Japan when playing the non-Midway scenarios. It is rather silly to debate the facts as they clearly exist within the game. All you have to do is hit you I key and count for yourself. Scenario 17/19 are exactly the same in this respect except for some additional skilled pilots and a quicker replacement rate on Japan's side. It does not in any way change the above numbers.
