OBB mixing Infantry with armor

[lion_of_judah]

how can I mix different units types together? I'm facing an AI enemy that has artillery and infantry, thanks

[Tssha]

Copied from page 325 of the manual:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?

[lion_of_judah]

The AI is hitting my units with level 7 infantry and artillery, unknown level, to my level 4 infantry and level 3 artillery.

[Clux]

ORIGINAL: lion_of_judah

how can I mix different units types together? I'm facing an AI enemy that has artillery and infantry, thanks

You have to discover OBB using the staff council, as mentioned earlier

[KingHalford]

ORIGINAL: Tssha

Copied from page 325 of the manual:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?

This is a bit simplistic: you'll have to attack with infantry in the early game and they can be most effective: remember that despite that Soft/Hard Attack penalty that they're TWICE as effective as the Minor Regime units overall.

Also, later in the game when you've got your infantry armed and armoured with advanced tech they can become incredibly strong!

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

ORIGINAL: Tssha

Copied from page 325 of the manual:

Foot is mostly defensive
Soldiers on foot without ranged attack have their Soft and Hard Attack Values divided by two.

I have made so many mistakes. I'm thinking I'll start over, and not attack with infantry unless they're paired with artillery or APCs. And maybe tanks, they count as ranged units too, right?

This is a bit simplistic: you'll have to attack with infantry in the early game and they can be most effective: remember that despite that Soft/Hard Attack penalty that they're TWICE as effective as the Minor Regime units overall.

Also, later in the game when you've got your infantry armed and armoured with advanced tech they can become incredibly strong!

I believe that manual entry is not worded properly. Infantry, I think, always has their attack cut in half, whether they are with ranged attack units or not. I'd have to confirm, but this modifier appears in their model design window thingy. So does the machineguns.

In my opinion, the infantry is just bad for the attack. You should never, ever, make infantry, mechanized or otherwise, with the intent to use it to attack.

The role of infantry units when used properly is thus:

* To break through enemy lines and destroy artillery.
* To kill tanks.
* To protect artillery.
* To reduce entrenchment (Probably by dying a lot; Soviet style)

The role of infantry OOBs, and their mechanized/motorized variants is to cut off supply roads (Only works on Majors) and to surround the enemy to give your tanks and artillery stupid bonuses, and to ensure that the unit you encircled is dead. Think of them as sheepherders.

I cannot stress this enough: Absolutely do not build infantry in the early game (on diffs higher than regular)

If you build infantry, it is for the purpose of sitting on your truck stops, and you cannot afford MGs or want just a little more 'oomph' on a desperate attack option (maintain zones on supply roads).

Later on when you get to laser rifles and better, your infantry will have options other than 'go and die for the motherland' and 'sit here 'till you die of old age... and then some more'

Do not get me wrong, I am talking about infantry OOBs that are exclusively infantry and elements that carry them. OOBs that mix tanks and infantry or artillery and infantry are godlike. Infantry performs a different role in those OOBs.

But yes, as BATTLEMODE says, when you get battledress, laser rifles and jetpacks, infantry become... interesting. Also, some unit feats will only attach to subunits composed of 100 members - those are infantry. And they're very strong.

I hope this helps you strategize your early starts better, and make use of proper OOBs in your next/current game.

EDIT: I forgot to mention one other extremely important use for infantry. DEFENSE. Front-line defense, especially in ruins, makes infantry extremely good. As good as walkers. Most things that kill infantry cannot shoot well in ruins, forests, or river-crossings, and this is where your infantry (on defense) does well. Also, sacrificing a few thousand to break through the enemy front line in these places is a good use for them.

[Laiders]

Bearing in mind you have literally no other options in the early game, assuming you want to raise formations of any significant size, what do you build in the early game? Endless independent regiments of buggies?

Or do you mean do not raise pure light infantry formations and should raise MG infantry etc instead? An MG infantry formation is still a pure infantry formation.

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

No, I go for a model design council first and wait until I have light tanks and artillery. Generally tanks with high velocity guns.

[Laiders]

Interesting... I've never played on difficulties higher than regular but that seems interesting.

Do minors really generate that many hard units early on higher difficulties or do you tend to play planets that generate a lot of raiders? I can sort of understand waiting for tanks but I really don't understand why you need anti-armour weapons right at the beginning of the game.

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

Minors and unaligned -are- the problem, on extreme diff at least. They are so much stronger than you that you really don't stand a chance on the offensive without tanks. Because the multiplier add up on top of one another. So you'd have 200% entrenchment, modifying their defense to 120. And then +25% for experience (as an example) to 150. And then +20% for difficulty to 180. And then in walks your silly 28 soft attack infantry, like lambs to the slaughter. In my last game I started next to not one, but TWO surviving AIs. Swarmed with walkers from turn 3, every turn.

And then I got tanks and absolutely murdered them.

For the record, the infantry, including MGs, did not stand up to them on the defense either. They're just not good enough even with assault rifles (not against walkers at least); but I got lucky with a GR MG that had like 1300 defense, and a syndic priest to double it. Absolutely unkillable. Except food shortages... I'll miss them.

Long story short: Even militia will crush your assault rifle infantry on extreme difficulty. But this is a lesson that should work on regular games as well. You should use infantry for their intended role, no matter the difficulty. Attack is not one of them.

[KingHalford]

Sounds like sage advice in general.

However I rate infantry rather higher than WeaverofBrokenThreads here. I only play on Regular so far (so take this with a big grain of salt as always!), but I find that terrain can often dictate that tanks and other wheeled units aren't viable for attack. Also, the general flexibility of infantry (they're really not THAT bad in attack, especially compared to early game units) allow them to take part in major offensives, not just to plug gaps but they're capable as a moving defensive wall. When you pair them with a decent OHQ Commander and an attacking posture, they can be most effective, especially if supported by something with some Hard Attack.

Also consider their relative cheapness compared to tanks: unless metal is very easy to get at, generally it's not feasible to field large tank formations until later in the game.

One caveat here: on maps where Envirosuits are not necessary, beware of the starting equipment your infantry use: they're easy to recruit and raise but man will they die in DROVES! Get them Envirosuits ASAP else they're not much better than the irregulars the Minors field!

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

Well, infantry are literally the worst unit at attack. That is a fact. There is not a single unit that has lower attack ratings than infantry. I did mention earlier, or maybe I forgot, that the use for infantry OOBS (mechanized, motorized or just on foot) is just that, defense.

On the attack, those OOBs specifically, are good at gaining you vital ground in a breakthrough. But even then, you'd ideally use artillery OOBs. You could use infantry if you absolutely have to. The OHQ bonuses and stratagems exist for a different purpose than to turn your crappy infantry into living metal gods.

Infantry, especially in mixed OOBs, which is what I was trying to get at as it refers to OPs post, performs the role of killing tanks and killing artillery. Tanks have less hitpoints against infantry (RPG, AR or MG, doesn't matter) and artillery in general takes crazy maluses to hitpoints when a unit has broken through the front line(a combat result). With roboteers, as an example, infantry can be deadly to backline troops. You don't want to move your tanks against AT guns; this is where you send your motorized/mechanized infantry that has artillery support.

Infantry also fights well in places where tanks and vehicles don't. Forests, ruins, mountains, etc. Allow me to rephrase. Infantry fights offensive just as bad as they always do, but some units fight worse than infantry in those places. Now if you were to add entrenchment modifiers on top of that, you can see how infantry begins to shine, especially MG infantry.

In the early game, infantry is literally chaff. A waste of metal, manpower and IP (if your purpose is to attack).

Now, I talked myself into a bit of a dark corner here, so allow me to explain properly: A healthy theater will have a mix of infantry and mechanized/motorized units. I am not saying do not build infantry at all. I am simply saying 'do not use them on the attack, unless you have a good reason'. For example, if you start on a medusa world with the Apocryphal Order or high fist profile, there is no reason why you should not use infantry on the attack. But that IS a waste of metal. It's just not as bad of a waste. At least your SHQ/OHQ will get XP. Lots of XP, hehe. Probably from sending all those letters of apology to bereaved family members.

There has to be a clear distinction made between early game and other stages. A more concise point would be: Save your early game IP and metal for tanks. They will have 20x the pushing power and range than infantry. I'd even say to ignore artillery, until you have a good source of IP to motorize it, because they are slow. In the early game, mobility is key. The more land you conquer, the more resources you will have. With fewer units, the ability to respond to all threats swiftly and effectively is paramount. Infantry cannot serve any of those roles, strategically or tactically. They are too slow and they are too weak.

The use of infantry, in other stages of the game, starts to phase out of even specialized attack roles. At some point, your infantry will have 70 soft attack and 400 hp. No matter how you look at it, infantry killing each other at this point is becoming a stretch. As polymer armor, or heavier armor becomes available (especially side skirts) even in the role of killing tanks infantry becomes lacking. At this point, their purpose is to eliminate entrenchment and to defend artillery pieces. Also to provide meatshields for APCs. APCs get the same amount of recon points as recon units, so your mechanized infantry becomes your scout unit. They will spot units for your rocket artillery, or hold hexes that have important resources to the enemy. Tactically, they no longer fulfill a real role (until you get better tech), but strategically they are vital.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: To make one more point as to what I mean: on that world I talked about where I got attacked by two surviving AIs with 100s of walkers each turn. I raised an infantry brigade and attached 2 independent tank units. I did this out of necessity, as I did not have the OOB for mixed units. The infantry in this case performs the role of standing at the front and herding the enemy to places where my tanks can kill them. I regularly suicide 1000 to 2000 infantry to get the enemy to retreat from their entrenched position and then I smash them with the tanks.

[KingHalford]

This is great info! I'm going to try this in my current game, thank you!

[KingHalford]

I want to ask, what about the hard counters to tanks? Namely AT Guns and RPGs? I've found the Majors like to build lots of units with high Hard Defence like that. Don't you find that stops tanks pretty effectively?

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

AT Guns you'd counter with infantry or bomb from range with artillery/rocket artillery. In my previous game, one of the majors really liked his AT Guns. The whole front line was scattered with them. I broke through with mechanized infantry and... sent the light tanks down the road, all the way to their city. The front line eventually fell apart cause they had no supplies.

But generally, if you cannot avoid them, you'd counter with mechanized infantry or bomb with artillery. If their readiness is low from constantly getting retreat combat results, they won't fight very well, and will fall over the moment the tanks roll in. Ideally, if their readiness is that low, you want to get artillery involved because they have a high number of attacks per combat round. If you can force the AT and RPG to retreat early, whatever they leave behind is as good as dead.

For clarification, I will reiterate: mechanized infantry. Ideally, the APCs will let the infantry break through, and then they will smash the AT guns. Even if you get killed in the attack (which is still likely), as long as you force the artillery to retreat, their readiness will drop 50%; which translates to a big malus on their attack. They will also lose entrenchment, a lot of it too. At that point they become vulnerable to medium and heavy tanks with minimal risk. Or you can finish the job with infantry. It all depends on how you want the front line to look like. Chasing them might be more problematic if it leaves gaps in your theater.

As for RPGs, it is pretty much the same thing. They are just infantry - they die. A lot. Just don't send tanks against them. APCs and artillery will do the job. Rocket artillery will do the job 10x over. Missile artillery will do the job 1000x over. And nuclear missiles will retroactively erase them from the timeline.

[KingHalford]

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads
And nuclear missiles will retroactively erase them from the timeline.

Bwahahaha! That sounds a lot of fun.

The combat in this game is very nuanced and I have to say it's the bit I understand the least. Reckon it's worth starting a topic for combat tactics?

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

I don't understand the combat system very well either. On principle, I do, but in practice I get strange results that (to my understanding) are impossible. I noted this in the technical support thread, as I do believe there's a bug in the code somewhere.

As for tactics/strategy, I don't think a thread is a plausible thing. For regular games, you can get away with a lot of things. But on extreme difficulty, the requirements are much higher. A good grasp of military theory and/or a lot of luck is necessary, and that's a bit more complicated than 'infantry counters static guns, and static guns counter tanks'. At least for me, extreme difficulty is about trying to predict where my armies will be 3 turns from now, and how to break-through the enemy lines; pincer attacks, enveloping attacks, rolling assaults, fallback points. It is also a lot more about where and how you place your supplies, expecting to lose territory. It is also about expanding properly to have fallback MSRs in case marauders zone your vital supply lines. On extreme difficulty, everything can and will go wrong.

I suppose if there is still quite a bit of confusion with the OOBs, I could start a thread about the cons, pros and roles of the various OOBs, but I'd need images for that, and for some reason the forum won't let me post them. Maybe also walk through how combat works (in principle).