Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective)

[RedLancer]

All turns are 1 week. The game is balanced as such and no turn gets played more than GC41 Axis T1. It is worth re-highlighting that difficult terrain like swamp and heavy woods with no roads is more expensive than WitE. Also the T1 rules are different.

This is absolutely not WitE after a haircut, a shower and wearing a new suit.

[RCHarmon]

If I am understanding RedLancer, The Axis GC first turn gets special rules. I think WITE opened a can of worms by having the same design decision. I would much rather see a random check among the Soviet forces that would remove certain amounts of movement points. This would reflect the surprise that the Axis had. Also, with random checks among the Soviet forces the Axis player wouldn't be able to search out the best initial opening. Am I not understanding the opening turn of the GC?

[Wuffer]

RCHarmon, Maybe it's me, but I couldn't follw you here?

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: DekeFentle

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo




It didnt flip, enemy mechanized division have had enough movement points to sneak between my units.

Wow, in comparison to WITE1 that's a ton of MVP's...

there is also a random element, Soviet morale and experience levels are randomised in the set up, so one game that unit might lack the morale for the move (the interaction of morale and ZoC moves is different to WiTE1), the next it cuts your supply lines.

So, yes, there is scope to study T1, explore options and so on, but even the best refined starts involve far more trade offs (& risks) than is the case in WiTE1

I think they eliminated exactly that 'can of worms' of first generation WITE, e.g. the boring 'chess-like' libery of standard opening moves.

Bobo (great AAR btw, to Loki and your opponent, too) took a certain risk and the other side get lucky?

[821Bobo]

First thanks all who like the AARs [:)]

I think they eliminated exactly that 'can of worms' of first generation WITE, e.g. the boring 'chess-like' libery of standard opening moves.

Bobo (great AAR btw, to Loki and your opponent, too) took a certain risk and the other side get lucky?

Well there is certainly some luck involved, for example the bad weather that is currently coming. So in one game you can have nice and sunny through the whole summer and in other you can suffer from rain. But the summer rains are not so crippling, due to two types, light and heavy mud(and rain) and in summer you get with the light.
Or in the first turn when I was relying on some luck that enemy won't have enough MPs to cut off my southern spearhead.
With the fixed T1 setup(but the randomized condition Soviet units start the game) people will definitely come with some ideal openings. I know people want some randomization in Soviet deployment since WitE however that will just give the ball to the other side and players would come with ideal Soviet deployment. And because Grisby's games are long runs, even the most perfect opening(and it doesn't matter if it is WitP, WitW, WitE1/2) will not won the game for you.

[Wuffer]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo


And because Grisby's games are long runs, even the most perfect opening(and it doesn't matter if it is WitP, WitW, WitE1/2) will not won the game for you.

how true!
But not that many testers would be brave enough to publish a less than perfect first strike, like a little collision between Kaga und Akagi during the tora-brimborium. I like.
But maybe next time GHC will listen to their allies and have the fast Slovakian Brigade in place - btw, I hope seriously they improved that combat value a bit, no reason to believe that the Reich gave away modern equipment for nothing.

[821Bobo]

The Slovakian fast brigade is little more complicated. In game it starts frozen for first 2 turns. Historically, on June 22nd, ad hoc group called Rychla Skupina(Fast Group or Mobile Group, predecessor of the brigade) has been formed, officially transformed to Fast Brigade on July 7th. The ad hoc formation crossed Slovak-Polish borders on June 24th(first action saw on June 25th). But at the start it has been only battalion sized and in game term off map unit.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: RCHarmon
What does this mean "first turn longer"???????????

WitE1 first turn was 4 days, WitE2 it's 7 days. But I'm confident the WitE2 team have balanced this out carefully just like RedLancer stated, with the Axis T1 rules reflecting one aspect of this balancing act.

[superian]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

From my experience I believe that bomb load does matter, in the end you don't need one ton bomb to destroy enemy plane on ground, 50kg will do the job just as well. Therefore all my planes will carry as many bombs as possible.

I have enormous respect for the people who play this, and its predecessor, however this is why I do not in just two sentences

Someone has to know what sort of bomb load a squadron will carry, but on a game of this scale, I do not want it to be me.

On this scale, I don't even want the system to care.

You'll be telling me that you can tell individual tanks what mix of main weapon ammo to carry next... and I suspect that if you can't, there will be some players moaning that you can't.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: superian

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

From my experience I believe that bomb load does matter, in the end you don't need one ton bomb to destroy enemy plane on ground, 50kg will do the job just as well. Therefore all my planes will carry as many bombs as possible.

I have enormous respect for the people who play this, and its predecessor, however this is why I do not in just two sentences

Someone has to know what sort of bomb load a squadron will carry, but on a game of this scale, I do not want it to be me.

On this scale, I don't even want the system to care.

You'll be telling me that you can tell individual tanks what mix of main weapon ammo to carry next... and I suspect that if you can't, there will be some players moaning that you can't.

+1

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: superian
Someone has to know what sort of bomb load a squadron will carry, but on a game of this scale, I do not want it to be me.

On this scale, I don't even want the system to care.

You'll be telling me that you can tell individual tanks what mix of main weapon ammo to carry next... and I suspect that if you can't, there will be some players moaning that you can't.

You really do not need to care. I've been playing throughout development and have never changed the bomb load, still did well and had plenty of fun.

[821Bobo]

Erik is right, you don't need to care, AI does it for you. You just have the possibility to tell the system with 2 clicks that all Ju-88(for example) should load those 50kg if you wish.

[superian]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You really do not need to care. I've been playing throughout development and have never changed the bomb load, still did well and had plenty of fun.

Mmmm, but it either makes a small difference when playing someone who does - and those add up - or it's meaningless chrome.

Let's say it does matter. So, the game is keeping track of how many of each sort of bomb each squadron has and some bit of the AI / the player options keeps track of what bombs go to which squadrons (if not, it's almost meaningless chrome / there's a series of magic bomb trees!) and there will be a difference if you do that.

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

no turn gets played more than GC41 Axis T1

Mmmm, I bet you're right.

As I said, I have enormous respect for people who play this, but it would be fascinating to know at what point people give up on the game and never touch it again. 1941 Axis T1 was it for me.

[Para87]

I'm sure there are plenty of gamers who refrain from playing the game because it hasn't been sufficiently "simplified" to their tastes. The developers have already gone above and beyond to cater to some who want a simplified air-war system.

A line has to drawn somewhere since you can't satisfy everybody after all.

[RedLancer]

Mmmm, but it either makes a small difference when playing someone who does - and those add up - or it's meaningless chrome.

There are diminishing returns on the benefits of extra tinkering at the detailed end like loadouts, precise altitudes for aircraft and routes to fly specific missions. Anyone willing to devote hours more time to the game will always do better but that is not the point. The fact is some players want the detail and some don't. It is not meaningless chrome if you get enjoyment from the process of finessing.

As I said, I have enormous respect for people who play this, but it would be fascinating to know at what point people give up on the game and never touch it again. 1941 Axis T1 was it for me.

I presume you mean based on your experience of WitE and not WitE2. GG Games are not for all - I don't play Candy Crush!

[EddyBear81]

I agree. It does not matter much.

I am one that loves to crunch data
I like to find the most optimal altitude for Me-109 vs Spit... and adapt with each version / context (HF Spit vs G-10, etc.)
Heck, I even have loads of excel spreadsheets calculating where to assign and track support units and how to maximize "Multi" brigades (either in support role or on-map, using the infamous "+1 hex" feature to capture key locations)... I found WiTW air system not detailed enough : I thought the Luftaffe should be able to tell 109s to attack escorts and 190s and 110s to attack bombers.

In the end, I've had my butt kicked more often than not by players who simply had better "intuition" and managed to manoeuver better, planned better, and just surprised me with daring landings or offensives and taking advantage of my blunders.

I asked one of them for his save files. I was amazed of the simplicity of his command structure. I could find dozens of optimizations that only took one turn to implement. No way would that be an efficient war machine by my standards. Some of his planes basically never took off (out of range) !!

He got a major victory.


Bottom line : I like to fiddle with everything. It did not bother my more casual opponents from having a good time.

[821Bobo]

Turn 4, 13.7.1941

Four new events this week. Once again I suffered from forces shortage in west.

Offensive in Finland started, I am curious how they will do.

And from East Front perspective the most important of these events is that Partisans became active.

My first unit has been assigned to anti-partisan duty. I'll come back to this in a later post but it is worthwhile noting that the entire partisan war is handled in an off-map Theater Box. Depending on how well I do, the main result will be some losses to the anti-partisan forces and variable (but usually small) levels of on-map interdiction.




From the start, Soviets are flying interdiction missions but luckily they are not very effective because currently there is not much what I can do about it.

Most of the Luftwaffe is still in the rear. However I have noticed bombing of railyard in Vitebsk and this is far bigger problem as freight movement depends from them. I have assigned Flak and construction unit to Vitebsk(and few other cities). Assigning construction units to cities costs admin points, Flak is free but removing it later does become a cost.

Since only 15 admin points are received per turn I need to do some thinking about how to spend them is needed. Number one priority is of course building depots but other actions costs points as well, such as assigning construction units to cities, changing not that good generals...




Weather forecast was correct and is raining on the entire front with exception of Romanian sector.

AGN

Offensive operations in the north continued despite bad weather. First week of rain and light mud in some hexes doesn't have crippling influence on movement, of course clear weather would be preferred.
Panzers pushed north towards Luga river. 16th Army and 18th Army finally catch up with the 4th Panzer Group.




AGC

Not much action in the AGC sector. 3rd Panzer Group isolated Smolensk but most of the 2nd Panzer Group is resting with hope of better weather next week. Otherwise I have just moved few hexes to establish contact with enemy units, flipping hexes and infantry is catching up.




AGS

No real progress in the south either. The Soviets managed to cut off the most exposed divisions but overall the nemy is retreating behind the Dnepr. As in the center, just converted undefended land and waiting for better weather. Most progress have been achieved by Romanians and 11th Army, 50th Infantry Division has reached the gates of Odessa.




All pockets has been finally cleared. In picture below you can see current losses and destroyed Soviet units.

[WM2K]

At chrome discussion above. There is a ton of details in WitE that dont really matter to the player and the game could chose to hide. Accounting for every soldier and weapon etc is part of the world building in this game and adds to the epic feel of the game so while sure its just "chrome" it does add the game. You wouldnt fault a game for having world building a story building details and graphics in any other case. In fact they are essential to the experience overall despite just being aesthetic.

[821Bobo]

Turn 5, 20.7.1941

Finnish liberation of Salmi resulted in Ladoga Karelia region changing ownership. This is driven purely by events but can be influenced by adding(or removing) forces from the appropriate Theatre Boxes.

That RAF Raids event caused some manpower damage in Cologne. Nothing to worry about, yet. In 1944 it will be different story.




As an unpleasant surprise came that Soviets successfully counterattacked at Smolensk, pushing back one Panzer division and restored contact with the city.

Also, in not so good news, it is still raining from Smolensk up to Leningrad.




AGN

Soviets did fly lot of interdiction missions over the 4th Panzer Group, they are doing it nearly every turn (in other sectors as well). I have attached Flak to every fast units and they are paying the toll.

During their Air Phase FlaK shot down 185 planes and they suffered another 106 as operational losses.



In the north Novgorod was taken but otherwise only small gains.

Railhead finally reached Pskov.




AGC

Around Smolensk there wasn't much action, city was again isolated and divisions from 3rd Panzer Group that were not needed to this task are resting. More to the south, 2nd Panzer Group made breakthrough and 10th Motorized Division reached an undefended Bryansk. Unfortunately not enough movement points were left for entering the city.

4th Army captured Gomel and 2nd Army units that dealt with the Bialistok pocket are marching towards the front lines.

Railhead reached Vitebsk and this will be the main depot here until Smolensk falls.




AGS

Some good success in the south. 1st Panzer Group have been moving east alongside Dnepr, exploited a sector not covered by Soviet zones of control, and crossed the river. In contrast with north and center it looks like the enemy is suffering from troops shortage in south.




The unexpected happened on the Black sea coast where Odessa have been found only lightly defended. Opportunity was taken and city successfully stormed. Thats a quite big deal as I won't need to waste troops for siege. I have been already hoarding siege artillery for this task, now will use it probably at Smolensk.




This week air losses were very favorable. Only few fighters lost but lot of Soviet planes flying ground support missions were shot down.




My top pilots/aces. To bad that the top two are no more.

[Wuffer]

That's quite fast all over the map so far. In chess terms one could give you nearly an astonishing extra tempo. Blame Guderian for Smolensk! IIRC he grapped the best Panzer III's for himself and let the Pz.I's for the others...

Surprise at Odessa. Your railhead is already there, but would the harbour helped otherwise?
How is your supply situation on the other side of the Dnepr?

Harsh attrition in the air. One third of your top aces is down, but OMG this will become difficult for the poor russian fighter pilots in the years to come.

[821Bobo]

Yes, so far I advanced fast but tempo is slowing down now.
Supply situation is overall good and my panzers have usually around 40+ MPs, however those that were under attack only around 20. It is definitely worth for Soviets to sacrifice some virtual soldiers and bog down panzers.

Odessa of course can be supplied by sea but only port in Black sea is Constanca. And I am not sure if it is enough to keep Odessa supplied.