David
It is a very pale yellow ... all the numbers in the screenshot are editable. Ought to highlight it is a created picture from two different editor screens.
P.S. You do still have access to the Dev Forum from your alpha days. PM me if you need reminding of the link.
Road movement
Moderator: Joel Billings
RE: Road movement
John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
RE: Road movement
ORIGINAL: RedLancer
ORIGINAL: Hanny
Did you compare with actual klm of surfaced and unsurfaced roads in Russia?, as in Hunter, The soviet transportation experience. That with the manuals gives you exact historical data to work from, most of Russia was poor roads, 143k was average or better.
10 miles is a mp cost of 1, how many gallons a vechicle in the Division is that In 2, how does that hex being an autobhan road change the cost, how does that hex bring a dirt road in wet conditions change it, in WiTE it’s 1 mps cost is nothing close to norms for cross country.
No, because that data is largely irrelevant within the game's abstraction of terrain and roads. Quoting facts and figures is all well and good, but trying to link those to the game isn't. If you had any clear understanding of the WitE2 game mechanics you would appreciate the non sequitur logic between the data you quote and what the game does. The discussion in another thread on Sdkfz 251s is a perfect example. Having total production numbers and comparing them to the game is only valuable if every variant is in the game. They are not. Using WitE1 as your start is also pretty pointless. I'm struggling to think of any major code process or art that has not been redone since the code split that led to WitE2; and that was before Morvael re-wrote large elements of the WitE1 code.
So for roads having the length by type is of little use because:
- Each hex is assigned a generic road value and there are only three choices: good, average and poor. (In WitW this was done by country and not hex). Note the terms are broad adjectives and not descriptors of specific road type or surface.
- The choice was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain.
- It absolutely wasn't done by a quantitative assessment of road length - not least because total length of roads and quality (type/surface) per hex is so different.
- The intent was to better define available manoeuvre corridors to add an additional dimension to movement particularly in dense terrain and inclement weather.
- The screenshot should answer your MP questions - note the yellow text - these costs are editable by anyone who chooses.
Thank you heighlighting the game is not using historical miles of roads, or quality of roads on Russia, as defined by the Germans at the time, or the Field manuals effects of move to rates on those roads. My logical mistake was in thinking the game would.
Game abstraction is number of hexes classed as roads of three qualities, a hex to count as road must have enough road in miles must be enough for a motorised formation to use as roads,so a Mot Div requires 25 miles of road space, when sat still, a urban hex must have 30 min miles of road to go from mid point to any adjacent hex in a straight line to get a Mot move,bonus from road movement. The number of urban hex in game at min miles of road leaves the miles of average or better, each hex that connects to another is 10 miles, if it connects to more hex sides the min number of miles increases. tithe use of this is to compare your mid War German map of roads, after the Reich has spent million of man hours making roads where they did not exists, to SU maps and miles of surfaces roads that did., of course having one map for the whole game misses the logical point that both sides expended vast resources changing the road infrastructure it to suit their military requirments, yet this is not modelled any more than average freight weight of a truck was different by year for each side. Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.
In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.
Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.
Thanks for the screen shot, most helpful.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Road movement
ORIGINAL: Hanny
...
In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.
Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.
...
As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.
RE: Road movement
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Hanny
...
In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.
Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.
...
As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.
The advantage of being numerate is you don’t have to assume, as in the other thread, your the only one making asumptions.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Road movement
Let me go further than Roger as this is becoming tiresome. I've never read so much supposition portrayed as fact in order to portray some sense of superiority in all my life. For those reading this post Hanny has no more knowledge of WitE2 at this point in time than what has been posted publicly so it's numeracy based on assumption.
We have never ever claimed WitE2 is perfectly accurate. We do however claim it is as faithful to history whilst still playable as we can make it within the code, resource and time available.
As I explained it was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain. Mileage and quality is a factor within that judgement. You may have spotted that the game map is just a tad more than just Russia and those hexes had to be given a rating too. The game has over 130,000 hexes although doing the water hexes was easier. I did struggle with Yugoslavia despite having served there.
The in-your-head game and certainly not in WitE2. As I wrote quite clearly each hex is assigned a generic road value. This does not have any direct link to mileage. Don't forget WitE2 uses MPs as currency that are an imprecise amalgam of time and distance. Road value is a related amalgam of MP cost varied by terrain and weather. Where in your available sources is combat delay defined and its impact on the rate of movement? You'll notice that we don't define MPs by time or speed and for good reason. Whilst it is clear you have encyclopaedic knowledge of the available historical sources I'm not sure that you have ever planned, executed or commanded the movement of a military formation. For the record I have on all three counts and more than once: including significant experience with armour. If only it was just calculations based on what is written down years later...
The same is true for the rail network and nothing has been portrayed otherwise. I refer you to my first paragraph above. What is your point?
...informed by your practical experience of which complex wargames' design?
...how do you know how many Sdkz [sic] chassis are produced in game? As for your proposed road calculations being used to show you know better, well that is just laughable, because I have clearly explained the qualitative nature of assigning a road value to hexes and the imprecise lack of a key would make any of your results highly subjective at best.
If you were more interested in the game than yourself you'd have been one of those many people who have personally e-mailed me over the last few years asking to help out. You weren't.
We have never ever claimed WitE2 is perfectly accurate. We do however claim it is as faithful to history whilst still playable as we can make it within the code, resource and time available.
ORIGINAL: Hanny
Thank you heighlighting the game is not using historical miles of roads, or quality of roads on Russia, as defined by the Germans at the time, or the Field manuals effects of move to rates on those roads.
As I explained it was qualitative based on good judgement and a balance of the number of roads, their type, map location and the hex terrain. Mileage and quality is a factor within that judgement. You may have spotted that the game map is just a tad more than just Russia and those hexes had to be given a rating too. The game has over 130,000 hexes although doing the water hexes was easier. I did struggle with Yugoslavia despite having served there.
ORIGINAL: Hanny
Game abstraction is number of hexes classed as roads of three qualities, a hex to count as road must have enough road in miles must be enough for a motorised formation to use as roads,so a Mot Div requires 25 miles of road space, when sat still, a urban hex must have 30 min miles of road to go from mid point to any adjacent hex in a straight line to get a Mot move,bonus from road movement. The number of urban hex in game at min miles of road leaves the miles of average or better, each hex that connects to another is 10 miles, if it connects to more hex sides the min number of miles increases.
The in-your-head game and certainly not in WitE2. As I wrote quite clearly each hex is assigned a generic road value. This does not have any direct link to mileage. Don't forget WitE2 uses MPs as currency that are an imprecise amalgam of time and distance. Road value is a related amalgam of MP cost varied by terrain and weather. Where in your available sources is combat delay defined and its impact on the rate of movement? You'll notice that we don't define MPs by time or speed and for good reason. Whilst it is clear you have encyclopaedic knowledge of the available historical sources I'm not sure that you have ever planned, executed or commanded the movement of a military formation. For the record I have on all three counts and more than once: including significant experience with armour. If only it was just calculations based on what is written down years later...
ORIGINAL: Hanny
tithe use of this is to compare your mid War German map of roads, after the Reich has spent million of man hours making roads where they did not exists, to SU maps and miles of surfaces roads that did., of course having one map for the whole game misses the logical point that both sides expended vast resources changing the road infrastructure it to suit their military requirments, yet this is not modelled any more than average freight weight of a truck was different by year for each side. Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.
The same is true for the rail network and nothing has been portrayed otherwise. I refer you to my first paragraph above. What is your point?
ORIGINAL: Hanny
Yearly modifiers to truck freight is with not exactly hard to include.
...informed by your practical experience of which complex wargames' design?
ORIGINAL: Hanny
...knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.
...how do you know how many Sdkz [sic] chassis are produced in game? As for your proposed road calculations being used to show you know better, well that is just laughable, because I have clearly explained the qualitative nature of assigning a road value to hexes and the imprecise lack of a key would make any of your results highly subjective at best.
If you were more interested in the game than yourself you'd have been one of those many people who have personally e-mailed me over the last few years asking to help out. You weren't.
John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev
RE: Road movement
Considering you emailed me asking me to spin my posts to put the game in a better light, I don’t have to assume your interest in making money is greater than making the game more accurate, mine was clearly given in a post, to increase the accuracy of the game.
Btw your constant appeals to authority are tiresome, knowing my day job includes teaching conflict simulation makes what I post no more convincing!, so it should be clear why I have not emailed you for help.
Lastly I already gave you the weekly production numbers, and where they are to be found online, please refrain from embarrassing yourself further.
You personally have convinced me to wait till it’s on sale at steam at a discount, we’ll done you.
Btw your constant appeals to authority are tiresome, knowing my day job includes teaching conflict simulation makes what I post no more convincing!, so it should be clear why I have not emailed you for help.
Lastly I already gave you the weekly production numbers, and where they are to be found online, please refrain from embarrassing yourself further.
You personally have convinced me to wait till it’s on sale at steam at a discount, we’ll done you.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Road movement
ORIGINAL: Hanny
ORIGINAL: loki100
ORIGINAL: Hanny
...
In the same way, validity checking of the model, knowing the game is using more Sdkz chassis than were produced, because of use of inaccurate TOE numbers, you can check the accuracy of the games data sets content, just as you can double check road hex numbers, with x number of road miles, not being greater than number of roads of average or better.
Comparing to WITE1 is so that I can judge if to purchase early or later, by knowing how much improved it is, I used the example of how many gallons a vechicle uses per 10 miles in 1, to get an idea of if 2 has improved it or not, having realistic fuel consumption or not is important.
...
As in your earlier thread, you are making some huge assumptions as to how the game handles the inputs you think are important. If you don't understand how that data is captured within the game engine then its quite a leap of interpretation as a test of whether WiTE2 handles these factors more realistically than WiTE1.
The advantage of being numerate is you don’t have to assume, as in the other thread, your the only one making asumptions.
thats true, which is handy as my first degree is in econometrics, my masters is in decision science and my PhD an application of Bayesian statistics and cluster analysis to organisational decision making, so if you don't mind, I think I am reasonably numerate ...
So perhaps best to stop this line of posting?
Equally I think this thread is going sufficiently off track (bad pun I realise) that its best locked at this point
RE: Road movement
Considering you emailed me asking me to spin my posts to put the game in a better light, I don’t have to assume your motivation is make money over that of a better game, while I posted that to make it more accurate was my intent.
Your constant appeals to authority are tiresome, knowing my day job includes teaching conflict simulation makes what I post no more convincing.
lastly I gave the weekly production numbers and where they can be viewed online.
You personally have convinced me to wait till a steam sale for purchase, stop posting here, we’ll done you, I’ll make an assumption, that’s your intent with your snide remarks.
Your constant appeals to authority are tiresome, knowing my day job includes teaching conflict simulation makes what I post no more convincing.
lastly I gave the weekly production numbers and where they can be viewed online.
You personally have convinced me to wait till a steam sale for purchase, stop posting here, we’ll done you, I’ll make an assumption, that’s your intent with your snide remarks.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.