Freight allocation for units in/out of 3 hex rule

[elmo3]

Don't feed the troll.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Hanny
That’s the same Loki who has answered yes and no to the same question, after not knowing the rule existed about double freight cost right?

He wrote the manual you are reading. I'm quite sure he knew about the rule. Bottom line on this is that from this point on the issue is no longer theoretical. Give it a try in-game, take our comments into account and if you see something that in actual play looks wrong, please let us know and we'll investigate.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Hanny
That’s the same Loki who has answered yes and no to the same question, after not knowing the rule existed about double freight cost right?

He wrote the manual you are reading. I'm quite sure he knew about the rule. Bottom line on this is that from this point on the issue is no longer theoretical. Give it a try in-game, take our comments into account and if you see something that in actual play looks wrong, please let us know and we'll investigate.

Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.

I'm sure you can understand that even if one knows all the rules, it's easy to forget one or two from time to time.

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.

I'm not seeing that at all, but of course your mileage may vary and it's certainly 100% your choice what to do with your gaming budget.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: Hanny
Static unit thread which leads to this thread as per first post content, in that thread post 2 Loki answering both yes and no to the same question, admits he has forgotten the wagon double cost rule.

I'm sure you can understand that even if one knows all the rules, it's easy to forget one or two from time to time.

what I am seeing is people conducting their game/ operational moves based on a logistical system that does not act like that of any WW2 Army, so see little need to join in at that fruitless endeavour.

I'm not seeing that at all, but of course your mileage may vary and it's certainly 100% your choice what to do with your gaming budget.

Sure people make mistakes all the time.

The manual and explanations I have read indicate that’s the most likely outcome from the use of the probability, or JIT logistical methods, with its increased efficiency used instead of using WW2 methodology, by that I mean the daily requests of the days consumed unit of supply was passed up the chain, so if the Reg consumed 24 tons that’s what it requests, by the time it gets to Div it’s a total of 72, so Corps arranges resupply of request in a standardised unit of supply that will exceed demand, by the next standard unit of supply for all forms of unit of supply, be it munitions, fuel etc, when it arrives, each Unit down the chain of command sends MTV equal to the tonnage it requested to the nearest 30 t, that’s the Standard unit of resupply assigned for the below that amount requested,so there is built in excess t assigned to transport, at every level of the chain of command, this is a linear use of planning constants, your always getting more than you requested as it’s delivered in standard packed units that exceed the actual requested amount, this linear standard weight of supply was inferior JIT of today that matches expected actual need in almost real time.

So for me it’s not a question of £, but if the 2 game is going to give me enough of a bump over keeping 1.

Will I get close to losses, by using the historical priority and sortie rates used, to the historical rates of airframes lost as I gave in the war room not bad t1 air thread?, are units expending close to the daily average tons of munitions I posted a while back?

A couple of other things, are you seeing something close to the German truck stock over time?
June194k
July 201k
Aug 212k
Sept 218k
Oct 223k
No data survived.
Jan 42 250k
Feb 262k
March 276k
April295k
May 303k
June 323k.

Or for instance the total number in June for trucks in the 3 GTR Army Regiments and LW Regiments, and Kraftwagon Transport Abet lung, being
Reg 602 Mil MTV4150 tons freight
Reg 605 civilian MTV 6000
Reg616 civilian MTV 9000
So Army transport from rail to depot MTV. 20k.

LW ditto 70k tons.

Civilian Kraftwagon Loading unloading of trains and aiding GTR to establish depot within 1 day of rail sidings storage, 37 k tons.

Total trucks for all depot forward lift 130k tons, is that close to what you see in the logistics phase, my guess it’s not as I have concerns the game logistics is not acting close enough how it worked for the Germans, am I wrong or not?.

Are formations consuming POl close to historical rates?, June to Dec 41.
2 Army 99k tons
4th 79k tons
9th 90k

2 Pzr 111k
3Pzr 95k
4th Pzr 43k

total AGC POl 519k t, is your best guess AGC is in game consuming that level of POL, if it is I will consider a purchase, after house purchase is completed next week, if not close at as I suspect, I’ll wait till it’s on sale.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Hanny,

ORIGINAL: Hanny
So for me it’s not a question of £, but if the 2 game is going to give me enough of a bump over keeping 1.

History has been the guide and the benchmark throughout in every aspect of the design. I can happily stand by the fact that WITE2 is the more realistic and historical wargame of the WW2 Eastern Front to date and is more realistic and historical than its predecessor WITE1 by a significant margin. Whether it's historical enough for you is very much a question you can only answer for yourself and given the degree of detail you are focused on, it's likely only you can answer that once you actually have the game. Nonetheless, I'll give your questions a try:

Will I get close to losses, by using the historical priority and sortie rates used, to the historical rates of airframes lost as I gave in the war room not bad t1 air thread?, are units expending close to the daily average tons of munitions I posted a while back?

With any wargame, the moment the player starts doing things differently than the historical commanders, it becomes hard to compare and there are certain aspects of the real world and the priorities of command that are difficult to enforce in a wargame. With that said, I've found that the losses over time are close to the historical levels, given historical usage of your forces. As with any Grigsby design, there is a lot of variance allowed in any single battle to allow the wide range of historical variation in results to also appear.

A couple of other things, are you seeing something close to the German truck stock over time?
June194k
July 201k
Aug 212k
Sept 218k
Oct 223k
No data survived.
Jan 42 250k
Feb 262k
March 276k
April295k
May 303k
June 323k.

This is almost impossible to do a true comparison on. In WITE2, you have 2.5 ton truck "equivalents". While the research was originally done to generate those, reverse-engineering that to compare them on a turn by turn basis with a raw aggregated total of "trucks" of unknown tonnage as you list above is beyond my capabilities.

Are formations consuming POl close to historical rates?, June to Dec 41.
2 Army 99k tons
4th 79k tons
9th 90k

2 Pzr 111k
3Pzr 95k
4th Pzr 43k

total AGC POl 519k t, is your best guess AGC is in game consuming that level of POL, if it is I will consider a purchase, after house purchase is completed next week, if not close at as I suspect, I’ll wait till it’s on sale.

This is also highly dependent on the player's choices and actions and while the game has some excellent data and metrics on a higher level, it's not easy to separate out without having planned to record in advance what the usage of a single army was over time. I simply don't have time to load up every save from every turn in my last campaign between June and December and add up the fuel usage for AGC or 2nd Army, nor would it be a valid comparison unless I as a player did exactly what those formations did in history.

I can tell you that as a player, I ran my panzers around quite a lot and used up quite a bit of fuel. My Fuel Stores Required per turn seem to start around 184,402 per turn in June/July and end up stable at between 201k and 203k through December and January. I've been watching my overall pool of stored fuel decrease over that time with some concern as I've used more than I've produced pretty much every turn so far.

Regards,

- Erik

[Hanny]

JHi Erik

Moving to our new house next Tues so may not have free time for a while, so will pick this up later and leave you with some further observations.Game uses MoGas and AvGas etc as the same fuel, I would of liked that to have changed for 2, which is why your not seeing a true production and consumption picture, and German for 41 was predicated on winning on accumulated stocks as demand vastly exceeded supply every month of 41, you can see this online at Haiti trust USSBS, look for the table on German production, consumption and stocks, AvGas MoGas and diesel, it’s in months of the year so you will have to add some up.

What I meant up thread, AAR Panzer v Bear from Axis pov shows how people are conducting operations, by T2 the lead Panzer in AGS creates a vast pocket, it’s 30 or so hexes from where it started, so has moved 300 straight line miles, 300 miles is the limit of aDiv operational movement for logistical supply, see V Crevald, on pre invasion planning to go 300 miles and then pauses, except it was allow rail conversion to catch up and allow resupply from rail heads, it prob spent 80 odd mps to do so so was well within its mps allocation, so converting mps to miles its more like 375 miles travailed, which is of course rather a lot less than the Ww2 rule of thumb of 2 miles cost to advance a mile.In T1 it was within air supply but beyond for cover, so any air resupply was a sitting duck, in T2 it was ether at the max range of air resupply or beyond it and again without air cover.

Where does it get its logistical supply from to perform this?, it’s not like it’s following a rail line, let’s start with if its got 5 days supplies carried in the unit, so 1500 tons, and consumes 300 a day, if you look at the map the nearest depot can’t help but still be from initial placement as the SU is blocking rail hexes, so it’s coming from trucks from the unit to the depot, because that’s how they were trained to supply Div in the field, it’s the GTR job to create depots away from rail lines to extend the daisy chain and establish depots closer to the units.What does that look like logistically?, imagine 14 dots in sequence, each dot is a day, and the distance between dots is 20 miles, this roughly gives us the Lead Panzer average position in space and time to end up where it does, each day it sends its supply columns back to get supplies after the Div has moved, so on D2 a 3 t truck moves back to depot and returns to Div, it’s moved 40 miles, and delivered 3t and could do this function in the hours available to deliver 15 t, so demand is easily met, and stocks are not depleted, but by day 7 it’s now travailing 280 miles in the same time, and delivering 3t a day, by end of week two it’s delvering 3t every other day as the distance increases by a linear amount each day.By end of week two, stocks are reduced by 4 lost days supply leaving 1 days stocks on hand.Each truck has driven a min of 3640 miles, 10 times the mileage of the unit forward movement

In game we can see it’s was a practical plan, on a historical logistical level, it’s a massive gamble, I used 30 mph as an average speed for truck supply, which is giving them twice the German QMManual speed and three the UK QM speed, but not it appears so in game as you have in all probability unused mps, as in week 2 any number of small things can lead to running out of everything.

In the same way, similarly if you look macro picture at historical Army and Pzr Group fuel consumption, Pzr Group And Army fuel use is not dissimilar, and in game, are you seeing the same ratio of fuel usage, or if you looked at micro level and moved a Div 1 hex for let’s say 2 mps, and noted its fuel and other supply cost for 10 miles, it would follow, if you moved 10 times the mps you get 10 times the supply demand so you can quickly validate in game to compare to historical data.Food for instance, 15 k manpower requires 22 t a day of food to be delivered, do you see that kind of level in game in the supply phase?, I doubt it, the manual tells us not enough detail to understand what is incorporated into the supply phase, let alone guesstimate it.

lastly I posted the historical GTR and civilian freight tonnage of trucks, it’s carrying capacity of c130000 t from depots so you could compare to in game tonnage that is moved from depots, the number of trucks is another matter, that given in game as trucks in stock so is easy to compare.