ineffective artillery

[Frank W.]

don´t forget the terrain type. woods and rough protect against arty , too AFAIK. and if the unit is entrenched of course the loss rate is lower, too.

in general i would say the SPWAW arty IS effective esp. all above 105. 155mm,5.5 + 8inch guns can be deadly if used at a soft target in bad terrain ( clear,sand for example ), not to forget the ship arty and rockets.

as a example i´m currently playing the russian steel camp battle 17 or so... you have to storm an enemy controlled village. much hungarian and german ( ? ) troops in there. but 2-3 turns bombardement w/ katjushas + 120mm mortars soften them so much that you even can go in with tanks without to much danger to be close assaulted..

[werderwayne]

I may be mistaken, but I think that maybe the statistic is that 70% of combat DEATHS came from artillery. I think that there were a very high % of casualties were by machine guns. As I remember, chances of getting wounded by MG were quite high.

I think that for many reasons listed above we shouldn’t see that many casualties in SPWAW from arty. I think that arty is actually WAY too effective, at least against tanks. Against soft targets I think that they are about right, but the effect that 81mm mortars have on heavy tanks is ridiculous. Not that I haven’t taken advantage of this…I used a single 81mm mortar and KO’ed a T-34 with three or four shots. It was silly, but I couldn’t help it.

Overall casualties for the whole war I don’t think are too important. In the American Civil War, the number one cause of death was disease. I think that a tactical Civil War game that ignores disease would be fine.

Air-to-ground rockets, I feel, in the game are ridiculously effective against tanks. On practice runs under perfect conditions the chances of a hit with a pair of rockets on a tank were maybe about 10%. I read an estimate that under combat conditions, the chance of a rocket hitting a tank was under 1%. For a plane 8-rocket run, I think that % was about 5-6%. In SPWAW, the chances PER ROCKET seem to be about 20%.

Best regards,
WW

[werderwayne]

Originally posted by Frank W.
don´t forget the terrain type. woods and rough protect against arty , too AFAIK. and if the unit is entrenched of course the loss rate is lower, too.
++SNIP++

This caught me off guard...normally cover is good for infantry, but I was under the impression that infantry in woods was in WORSE shape against mortar and rocket attacks. The reason was that the rockets and mortar rounds would hit the trees and explode DOWN on the soldiers, making trenches much less effective.

Any ideas?

-WW
PS how does one get "The Editor" for SPWAW?

[LordCucumber]

Originally posted by werderwayne

PS how does one get "The Editor" for SPWAW?

There is a nice ingame button (took me a while to find it) called 'editor'

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by werderwayne
This caught me off guard...normally cover is good for infantry, but I was under the impression that infantry in woods was in WORSE shape against mortar and rocket attacks. The reason was that the rockets and mortar rounds would hit the trees and explode DOWN on the soldiers, making trenches much less effective.

mhhh... i would be interested in that question, too.

but than arty in sand hexes must be less effective because the sand "swallows" some of the explosion power of the shells....

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Artillery ineffective?? Surely you jest

You have clearly never experienced my artillery then hehe.

Patton would hold you by the nose and kick in the azz.

Me I prefer to stand on your head and jump up and down on it .

I love artillery

Best way to ruin an attack is to pound the snot out of it with artillery.
Of course timing is the key, my timing could be better.

[Frank W.]

how about a PBM, les ?

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

The initial answer is yes, the realistic one is I will have to pass. Will be away from home a fee days, and have my hands currently full with a few tasks.

It would not be fair to start what I might not finish.

[plloyd]

While it is true that artillery caused most combat casualties in WW2, most combat casualties do not happen in battles such as portrayed in the game. Most artillery fire is at a rather low intensity for days, perhaps weeks, over a large area. The intention was to cause trouble and minor disruption. Also I didn't see anyone mention the 15 minute to an hour preparatory bombardments which often happened. Most artillery casualties simply do not happen in our battles. Would anyone like to play a game of 50 turns where the first 30 are spent doing recon and bombardment? If so let me know, but I don't think I would want to make a habit of it.

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
The initial answer is yes, the realistic one is I will have to pass. Will be away from home a fee days, and have my hands currently full with a few tasks.

It would not be fair to start what I might not finish.

okay, perhaps another time

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by m10bob
(If only they could make a mortar that could throw smoke,exclusively,like ALL American 120's in the "chemical" bn's before 1943)..

Just a note on 4.2 inch Mortar "Smoke" uh that wasn't exactly smoke.. it was White Phosphous aka WP or Willy Pete.. excellent smoke producer also excellant casulity producer.. an all around popular filler for many US Mortar and Artillery rounds and Bazooka Shells. Probably , overall, the most common Mortar round made and used in WW2 by the US. See http://www.4point2.org/mortar42.htm#Top for history and details as well as number and types of ammo made.
IMHO the lack of WP ammo for US forces is one of the biggest ommisions in this game. It is about the equivalent of the German Tanks not having AT rounds. US Tanks carried WP and it was often loaded "ready" in the chamber to fire and block LOS of German AT guns and tanks upon first contact.
At any rate in the Arty/ Mortar Application WP was a dual smoke casulity producing round and was H*LL on German troops hiding in the woods and would effectively deny the area to troops, when used, for a reasonable lenght of time, both by starting fires and causing some serious fear due to the exceptionally painful and difficult to treat wounds. WP from a 4.2 inch Mortar would still be igniting for about 5 minutes after impact.

[AmmoSgt]

OK Back to Artillery Effectiveness http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/wt_of_fire.htm discusses the various factors that go into atillery effectiveness.. Terrain, Weight of fire, number or rounds fired ect. Please Note that not all shells of the same caliber are created equal.. In SPWAW all 105mm shells are the same .. in real life US 105mm were about half again as powerful as , oh say, german 105mm . US 155 a little heavier with more explosive filling than 150 ect .. and the US 240 aka 9.4 inch way up there ( not in the game , but about a dozen Battalions in the ETO in WW2 IIRC) .
So if you think arty is too effective or not effective enough, simply check your results against the factors in the article.
One Factor not discussed in this article is "Time" most casulities are produced right at the start of the barrage.. most sensible folks diving for cover.. Only the US had the doctrine and technical capabilites to achieve Time on Target massed fires , resuling in more casulities per round fired , since more rounds hit in the first few seconds of the barrage.

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt:

US Tanks carried WP and it was often loaded "ready" in the chamber to fire and block LOS of German AT guns and tanks upon first contact.

That sounds like, if implemented, would give US tanks a signifigant reduction in being able to fire the first armor-piercing round, although conversely it should give them a signifigant first smoke-popping round.

[AmmoSgt]

Another big Factor in artillery inflicting casulities is the ability to achieve a reliable air burst as discussed in the previous link in the post above . and in http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/ammo.htm
US and British Artillery pretty much stays the same in effectiveness in SPWAW through the war , However starting in late 1944 both the US and the British started using VT ( Variable Time or proximity ) fuse . This gave the Allies a reliable air burst at the optimum height for casulity production , increasing the potential for casulities about 3 fold. This is totally ignored in SPWAW, so whatever your calculations show as to the appropiate casulity production pre Sept 1944 the game is definately under rating Allied Artillery post Sept 1944.
I know some folks don't like artillery, especially when it is used against them , especially if they are playing as the Germans , but simply in the cause of Historical accuracy ( I know, I Know, I have posted all of this many times before) . The US had more Artillery battalions in the ETO than they had Tank Battalions.. The Use of Artillery is part and parcel and fundamental to proper US Battle Tactics. Just as Tank/ Mech Inf tactics is core to proper German tactics. To make all artillery of a type equal to all other artillery of that type and to make response times ( Historically the US averaged about a 2 minute response time while Germany had approximately a 12 minute response time ) near equal is IMHO the same as averaging all medium tanks into a category of equal speed armor and gun power.
In WW2 with standard cross attachment of independant US Artillery Bde's to a Division in Combat, a Division would have 6-9 Arty Bn's to support it's 9-12 maneuver Bn's . Artillery was a fundamental element of US Tactics , even at Bn level combat. To have a Bn of maneuver forces in contact with the Enemy and NOT having at least a Bn of Arty in support would be a rare occurance in the US Army in the ETO. I know it is just a game , and that , as I have pointed out here many features of Artillery have been ..ah ..um .. "balanced" so the Germans have a chance against artifically equal odds , and the US cannot employ standard US tactics against them so the game can be "fun" for some. But if you are at all interested in "Historical" games .. this should give you some of the adjustments you would need to make .. Unfortunately some adjustments such as WP and Smoke are a hard code issue and the rather poor quailty of German Smoke cannot be simulated.
Just so you know when the Tiger Kitties start doing their little dance of glee , they did it to the Alied player while the Allied Player had one hand tied behind him by the way the game is slanted. The Queen of Battle had Her legs cut off so the game would be "Fun"

[AmmoSgt]

Originally posted by Charles_22
AmmoSgt:

That sounds like, if implemented, would give US tanks a signifigant reduction in being able to fire the first armor-piercing round, although conversely it should give them a signifigant first smoke-popping round.

US Tanks properly employed were not designed to act as tank destroyers.. that was what Artillery and Air Power was for. The whole concept or US Tank v German Tank is an artifical situation , occasionally encountered in actual combat , but forced on the players by the structure of the Game .. 8 times out of 10 the Germans would not have any Armor on the battlefield in WW2 to oppose US or Russian tanks but they would have anti tank guns , which are better handled by the fast response US arty, the object of "popping smoke/ WP" from the main gun is to protect the US Armor while the Infantry locates and the Artillery destroys the AT Guns.

[Irinami]

One way to simulate the long preparatory barrages (15 minutes to an hour? Try 4 hours to several days!) is to use the 'Reduced Squads' option. Yes, it makes your combat forces a little less "by-the-book," but... the only time things are "by-the-book" are in the rear with the gear.

[Karnaaj]

Originally posted by werderwayne
I used a single 81mm mortar and KO’ed a T-34 with three or four shots. It was silly, but I couldn’t help it.

Not really. First time I tried Tutorial #8, Killing a Tiger, I moved my forces up, lost a Sherman to the Tiger, and since the surviving crew of the tank could see the Tiger, I decided to pin any supporting infantry. "Bombard the hex!" WHM. WHAM. KLUNK-"Top Hit-Tiger DESTROYED". Everyone turns and stares at the mortar crew...

"Uhm, that was a little too easy..."

Or the time I was doing "The Matrix Moves Out" as the Germans, and the 8cm in the halftrack managed to kill one of the Allied 155mm SP guns...

And both of these were indirect fire missions - the Sherman crew *saw* the Tiger, but didn't spot for the mortar. (Either the HQ called it in, or the mortar unit itself called in map fire, I forget which.)

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt:

the object of "popping smoke/ WP" from the main gun is to protect the US Armor while the Infantry locates and the Artillery destroys the AT Guns.

My point was, that if we are interested in getting things correct, all the way around, then naturally a tank having smoke as a default load, wouldn't have it only as an advantage but also as a disadvantage. IOW, in SPWAW, as far as I can see, the US tanks suffer no penalty for this alleged tendency, and I do agree that the way they're structured, the TD's were the main AT armored idea, but if one were to get so specific about US smoke doctrine, you wouldn't just ignore the benefit to the exclusion of the detriment which I've pointed out.

Given how SPWAW battles work, be that H2H or against the AI, I'm sure that a good number, perhaps even the majority who play the US, would prefer to leave things as is than to see US tanks suffer first shot or reaction penalties to fire something other than that smoke round.

OTOH, if you want realism, and want that smoke round in there, then you'd also have to live with the fact that it's not a benefit only.

[AmmoSgt]

Charles .. first off it isn't smoke .. it's WP ( which isn't in the game).. second it wouldn't matter in the game, since, to the extent you can select ammo using the Z key, under player control it doesn't cost any time to change ammo between regular and smoke ( you would have to use the Z key to pop smoke infront of a AT gun to block LOS). Although, if the Game even had WP, a first round shot of WP into the firing hex itself would cause sever disruption , possible casulities on anything less than a tank , even open top armor, during opfire if the tank firing the WP actually spotted the firing unit itself. A WP round would cover half a hex with smoking/ burning particles of WP, each partical could wound or kill exposed personel, light open top or non armored vehicles on fire ignite ammo or fuel or underbrush or grass, especially any underbrush that had been cut down and arranged as camo ( since it dries out fairly fast, doctrine being one cuts new brush every 12 hours or so , so the leaf color change as it dries doesn't give the position away) ect.
In Short I was not advocating that US tanks be preset in the game to carry a first round shot of WP, I only mentioned the fact that it was a common practice to make an arguement that WP be inculded in the game in the first place. I would be quite happy if the smoke rules remained exactly as they were except that instead of the less common HC smoke round the US had the more common WP round that could cause casulites as well as make a denser thicker better masking longer lasting smoke than US HC smoke ammo , by all accounts even the HC Smoke was better/thicker than what the Germans used , but even that fact is not represented. HC Smoke was what was used rarely in ammo , but commonly in smoke generators , Hmmm now that you mention it US Smoke Generators aren't in the game either.. but I digress...
The most common artillery round made and used by US Artillery other than HE was WP ..WP was available and concidered a valuable round for both smoke and casulity production for all types of artillery and direct fire cannon ( Ok not exactly every direct fire cannon.. the US 37mm didn't have WP as far as i know.. but it did have a grapeshot round for anti personel use , but thats not in the game either) .. but mostly for mortars and Bazookas and other front line point of contact weapons where WP smoke was used to facilitate maneuver and neutralize stuff like pillboxes fixed positions and AT guns and machine guns and cause casulities to dug in troops.
what I am talking about is the tank(s) coming underfire from an unspotted would respond with a curtain of WP fired in the general direction of an unspotted at gun or whatever that started shooting at them. What I am asking for/ complaining about the lack of is the WP ammo itself..
This game goes to great lenghts to disingush between types of AT Ammo, HEAT , AP , Sabot. It distingushes between quality of armor, It distingushes between a 75mmL31 and a 75mmL43 and a 75L70 Because they all perform differently. Conicidentally these items tend to favor the Germans. The game does not recognize the differnces in ammo for artillery that favor the Allies ( 105mm having half again the explosive force, as well as smaller but still real differences in other calibers , and the existance of VT fuses) and does not admit to the existence of ammo types that favor the allies .. the game even went so far as to artifically increase the range of the panzershreck and give it an HE capability so it was equal in range and accuracy to the bazooka ( while retaining it's larger more powerful warhead that made it shorter ranged to start with, and it's increase AP Pen which made it less effective as a HE weapon) when they were forced in the OOB to quit issuing Panzerfausts to the units a full year before they actually entered production, but continues to deny the Bazooka WP ammo. I know it is all in the " interest of fair play " and it is only a " game" , it is for " balance" so it will be "fun" . I don't mean to be bashing the game, but I see these posts by the Tiger kitties talking trash about how cool the Nazi stuff is .. when the truth is the US/ Allied secret weapons / weapons of advantage that were actually in WW2 are not even allowed in the game or are dummed down to Axis capability or Axis weapons are inflated to appease folks who complain that weapons like the bazooka are "too powerful". Even the Morale/ experience rating values are wacky to cause US gear to be more expensive. The cost difference between experience 65 and 70 is the largest jump between any 5 points for very little actuall battlefield effect. Yet US Troops going ashore in North Africa are a 70 while the British that have been fighting in North Africa since 1940 are a 65? that adds what? over 10% to the cost of US gear. Why Not at least try and get it somewhat right for the Allies. I see folks post on here that obviosly don't have a clue about how baddly the Allies are hamstrung in this game due to political/ sales/ marketing issues. US 60mm Mortars in Infantry units don't even have smoke fer petes sake.. much less WP, why is that? US Rocket 4.5 inch Rocket launchers ( another WP biggie) can documented completely reload and Fire 3 times in 5 Minutes , yet in the game they reload at the same slow rate as German Rocket launchers. Wulfraums are direct fire only weapons but they get indirect fire but US 75mm Direct Support guns on amtrac and Stuart chassis don't get the indirect fire they actually had. Same with Half track mounted guns .. and quad 50's both direct and indirect in reality, but no indirect for the quads and you have to buy seperate halftrack guns ..one for direct one for indirect with restricted ammo choices. Same basic artillery calling procedures for all nations despite the US being the only country that trained and equiped Paltoon leaders to call Artillery. Dang near every nation gets Infantry Radios .. truth is only the US had anything like a portable radio to commonly issue to Infantry , everybody else was stuck with vehicle mounted radios. You can't tell the difference in game play between Germans Inf and US Inf with field communications...WHY? It is annoying.

[VikingNo2]

Could someone please give Ammo Sgt some WP !