Retreat losses

[Chris21wen]

So what is to keep us always keep the whole stack except one unit in Reserve?
That way if the enemy attacks and the battle CAN be won, the units flip into Combat & win (?). If it cannot be won, they just all retreat with all of their devices, apart of the unlucky sacrificial one.

What am I missing? I mean how is this not a known thing after all these years?

There's no gaurantee that units in reserve will enter the combat. See 8.2.1.1.

[Kull]

There's no gaurantee that units in reserve will enter the combat. See 8.2.1.1.

Correct. And if the leadership check is passed and they DO enter combat, they do so in "Move" mode which will likely result in even greater casualties. So there are risks.

[JanSako]

There's no gaurantee that units in reserve will enter the combat. See 8.2.1.1.

Correct. And if the leadership check is passed and they DO enter combat, they do so in "Move" mode which will likely result in even greater casualties. So there are risks.

That makes sense, so I would use it in places where I want to put a bunch of forces to 'force' the opponent to concentrate, but I do not really want to fight (cause Chinese leadership is kind of a joke early on), so one unit gets mauled but the rest retreats. Fairly limited use, and the fact they enter combat in MOVE mode is significant.

Not sure if anyone can prove if this is correct, but when I am besieging a fortified hex, in between attacks I tend to swap most of the stack to Reserve, with only a token force and arty in combat mode & bombarding. It 'feels' like the assault divisions are recovering faster that way (split to 1/3rds and in Reserve/no pursuit mode). Especially if I only need 2-3 days of pause to bring down fatigue/confusion.

[BBfanboy]

For sure, being in Reserve mode is less tiring than standing ready in Combat mode. Recovery does happen faster in Reserve mode.

[Yaab]

This whole retreat unscathed mechanism is actually important for single Chinese LCUs. Instead of geting your single LCUs trashed, just divide it into ABC, set C to Combat (C divisions are weakest in terms of engineers/guns) and set AB to Reserve. Thus you sacrficie a rearguard (C) but extricate AB.

There are two things I cannot test right now:

-C in Combat, AB in Reserve, but actually moving toward adjacent hex. Will they also retreat unscathed when moving?

-C in Combat, AB in Reserve. Battle lost, but victorious enemy has LCUs like armor in Pursuit mode. Can such units intercept units in Reserve retreating?

[JanSako]

All the units in reserve/pursuit will do is start moving in the direction where the retreating units move. There is no further combat in the same turn like 'overrunning' or some such.
The one problem here is that units that do retreat will do so toward their closest supply source, and not necessarily where YOU want them to retreat, regardless of where they were set to move. They cannot also retreat to a hex where there is already an enemy, regardless of a hexside being open.

As an example from my latest game, after Mersing Gambit I took Kluang, but the British forces retreated NW to Malacca, not SE towards Johore & Singers. The hexside towards Johore was open, so I can only conclude that they were not allowed to retreat South because my units were already present in the hex.

[BBfanboy]

Yaab in your second situation with the enemy tanks, the usual thing is that all of your units in the hex have been defeated and are retreating. Only then can the tanks take ownership of the hexside and move to the next hex. Since your AB portions of that unit have not been engaged they still own the hexside and are in the hex you are trying to retreat from, so the tanks cannot get to the hexside yet.

But if your defeated C portion fled through some other hexside and only your AB portions remain in the hex, the enemy could attack them next turn and rout them wherever. In that case the tanks could follow and win the hexside.

[Yaab]

Damn, I have just noticed the unit in my example took a morale hit. It retreated in good order, but its Morale dipped from 41 to 32 without combat. So there is a morale penalty for retreating?

Look closely at the Morale stats:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p5115801

[Sardaukar]

Damn, I have just noticed the unit in my example took a morale hit. It retreated in good order, but its Morale dipped from 41 to 32 without combat. So there is a morale penalty for retreating?

Look closely at the Morale stats:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p5115801

There should be.

Throughout history retreats have rarely been good for morale.

To clarify: those troops lost the battle, even if they didn't participate, obviously they'll take morale hit.

[Yaab]

True, I just wish the manual was explicit about it. Two or three retreats like this and your LCU morale is in the gutters. Also, this morale loss can easily be overlooked by a player during gameplay.

[Sardaukar]

True, I just wish the manual was explicit about it. Two or three retreats like this and your LCU morale is in the gutters. Also, this morale loss can easily be overlooked by a player during gameplay.

People often overlook Morale.

It is even more important than Experience. Low Morale will make your units retreat or getting destroyed. Especially Chinese.

[Yaab]

So, it begs for an update in the manual

page 186
A unit in Reserve Mode that is forced to retreat and has not been released will have its Op Mode changed to Combat and is retreated with the other units in the hex.(New Info" Unit will lose Morale points")

[Yaab]

The plot thickens.

I decided to use 35th Chinese Corps for a short test.

I have divided the corps into A/B/C divisions. A/B were set to Reserve and started moving to an adjacent hex. C was set to Combat.
I have replaced the leaders in A/B with WORST Chinese leaders available (lowest aggro+lowest land). I wanted them to shy away from incoming combat and fail their checks, so A/B don't "march to the sound of the guns".

Alas, both A/B commited to the battle and stopped the Jap attack!

Here are those worst leaders who somehow have passed the checks. Notice that both A/B are set to Combat automatically after the battle and they HAVEN'T LOST their accumulated miles!. So in theory I can set A/B to Reserve again, and they can still add the miles to their mile count next turn.

[JanSako]

One of the earlier posts stated something like 'they will flip to Combat if they can change the odds'. In which case what you saw would make sense. I would think the threshold to pass would be really low if they can stop the attack.

'We have a few guys milling around outside our lines, can you please help, in case they actually try to attack?"
'Yeah, sure Thing!'

or

'The Japanese tanks have already outflanked us and there is what look like a 100 000 of them outside my trench.'
_leadership test failed_

[Yaab]

The manual says the Reserve units change their mode to Move and participate in combat.

Normally, when you have an LCU fighting in Move mode, you get op mode(-) modifier in combat report. However, I have yet to see such a modifier in battles where Reserve units participate in combat. Thus, two things may be happening:

-Reserve units fight in Move mode and don't receive op mode(-) modifier (which is strange and contradicts standard code behaviour)
-Reserve units fight in Combat mode (and the manual is wrong about the Move mode)

[Chris21wen]

The manual says the Reserve units change their mode to Move and participate in combat.

Normally, when you have an LCU fighting in Move mode, you get op mode(-) modifier in combat report. However, I have yet to see such a modifier in battles where Reserve units participate in combat. Thus, two things may be happening:

-Reserve units fight in Move mode and don't receive op mode(-) modifier (which is strange and contradicts standard code behaviour)
-Reserve units fight in Combat mode (and the manual is wrong about the Move mode)

Not something I can answer and never noticed before.

To fight effectively you need to be in combat mode, however as the reserves are effectively moving to the front to fight they would need to be in move mode to get there. Having said that, a unit in combat mode will still move. So?

[JanSako]

I would guess the manual is wrong.
Also, there 'may be' another check for units in Move mode to switch to Combat. I do not believe I ever noticed units that were is Reserve be in Move mode after a battle. Same with 'intentional' Move mode guys, they usually switch to Combat or get beaten & retreat, & still are switched to Combat for the next day/orders phase.

[Yaab]

Allied Banzai charge, here we go.

A BF in Kota Bahru starts the war with assault value of 0. The BF has high disruption owing to the previous Jap amphibious bombardment. I put the BF in Reserve mode so it can retreat in good order losing some morale points but retaining all its disabled squads. Well, I was wrong.

A BF with assualt value of 0 can still be commited from Reserve to battle. The BF lost eng/eng veh/aviation sup/sup squads. Also, it is now in Disorganized state after the retreat.

Didn't know the code can commit units with AV of 0 to battle, but it does. So far, I haven't yet seen the code commit a single HQ unit from Reserve to battle, but obviously BFs are a fair game.

This has some ramificiation for land combat. If you want your HQ to put its sup/mot sup devices in battle, put the HQ in Combat mode. If you want your HQ to escape unscathed from battle, put it in Reserve mode.

Anyway, Reserve mode has one advantage over Combat mode - a BF on Combat mode with similar exp/morale/disruption/fatigue would have either SURRENDERED or got DESTROYED when forced to retreat. In Reserve mode, the same BF loses some devices and morale, but retreats and doesn't get destroyed.

Pre-battle BF


Post-battle BF

[Yaab]

I just dawned on me that you can lose all artillery in a retreat.

Consider.
A big Jap LCU starts an arty duel with US arty units which have superior 155mm guns. After some time, all Jap 75mm field guns are disabled. An US LCUs attack the Japs. Japs lose the battle (they now have less firepower), retreat and lose all the guns.

Now consider Allied China in the beginning. A Chinese corps starts the war with i.e 10 active guns, 20 disabled (guns as arty+mortars). Japs attack, the Chinese retreat and lose 20 guns. The Chinese cannot replace those guns (their build rates are VERY LOW). It is setting up the Chinese for a failure. Instead, the scen001 could start like this:
-the Chinese corps has 10 active guns
-the 20 disabled guns are moved to the device pool
-the arty build rates stay the same

Now, the Chinese would
-save a lots of their starting field guns,
-could channel the guns from the device pools to units behind the immediate frontlines
-build rates stay the same, but the Chinese stay more competitive since their field guns are not destroyed en masse in early frontline battles

[RangerJoe]

I just dawned on me that you can lose all artillery in a retreat.

Consider.
A big Jap LCU starts an arty duel with US arty units which have superior 155mm guns. After some time, all Jap 75mm field guns are disabled. An US LCUs attack the Japs. Japs lose the battle (they now have less firepower), retreat and lose all the guns.

Now consider Allied China in the beginning. A Chinese corps starts the war with i.e 10 active guns, 20 disabled (guns as arty+mortars). Japs attack, the Chinese retreat and lose 20 guns. The Chinese cannot replace those guns (their build rates are VERY LOW). It is setting up the Chinese for a failure. Instead, the scen001 could start like this:
-the Chinese corps has 10 active guns
-the 20 disabled guns are moved to the device pool
-the arty build rates stay the same

Now, the Chinese would
-save a lots of their starting field guns,
-could channel the guns from the device pools to units behind the immediate frontlines
-build rates stay the same, but the Chinese stay more competitive since their field guns are not destroyed en masse in early frontline battles

The disabled guns are lost for various reasons including damage to the gun carriages, flat tires, and insufficient crew members due to MIA, WIA and KIA.

You can do the Chinese part in a modified scenario.