Russian status after updates to supply / air

[sveint]

Well here is my feedback sadly: the Soviets are even worse in this patch. I can't see myself playing any more games.

[CHINCHIN]

I'm working on a mod where armor units from all countries have 1 movement point less, and Russian armor starts with 6MP, then increases 1MP with Russian OP events. Perhaps this small change will considerably improve the Russian options.

I also want to modify the naval units to be cheaper and less powerful, nobody builds naval units for their excessive price.

[AlvaroSousa]

I am working on the new list of bugs this week FYI. I took note about the overruns. I am doing some testing. There should definitely be more retreats and less overruns.

[stjeand]

Not sure that the overruns alone will "fix" Russia but maybe.

Problem is...each change takes months to test...and if it fails we end up in the same boat.

I wish we had a USSR test scenario that we could focus only on them for a test.
Taking 2 - 4 weeks to play just to get to the position to test is not helpful.

You can find out after 3 weeks that you messed up and now what? Test is invalid.

[redrum68]

In theory, the 1941 scenario would be exactly that. Though the question then is whether the starting conditions of that scenario closely match what 1939 PvP games have on the start of Barbarossa.

[stjeand]

The 41 scenario is NO where near that.

The Russians have units they can not possibly have in a game that stars in 1939.
The Germans have units they can not possibly have.
Russian units are not in places anyone would put them. Germans can overrun air units but that never happens since all Russian players move them.


Plus you are stuck with what ever exists in the 41 scenario, where you could have build 10 armor rather than 20 corps and / or test any other way to play then.


I think we need a scenario that starts in July 40 giving the USSR and the Germans the PP they should have and unlimited manpower and let them build what they want for the 41 battle. Still will take time but would be faster to test.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Well here is my feedback sadly: the Soviets are even worse in this patch. I can't see myself playing any more games.

Please, could you add a little more details? Soviets are toasted yes but when? Did you take Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov in 1941? Or, did you win during the summer campaign of 1942 as usual in the previous patch?

[stjeand]

Year...1942
End of April...clear turn.
Moscow falls.
Leningrad is being evacuated because will be out of supply.
Rostov will fall in the next month.
Stalingrad will tall in June.
Soviet army is smaller than the German army.
Soviets are at 45% manpower so can not even build without making weak units.
Germany is at 99% manpower.
Got two cold / clear turns in winter of 1941 and destroyed 12 soviet units.

Soviet mistakes.
Building mountain troops. They are garbage but did not notice how bad until to late.
Though they are basically stronger they are weak defenders.
Barely filled up Logistics pool.
Turn 1 got Finland to surrender at the cost of 3 soviet corps...in my eyes worth it due to the fact that the Fins have WAY better troops.


Soviets are currently trying to hold the river east of Moscow but have half the units the Germans do so it is not possible.
Expect to be in the Urals by July.


Issues I see...

Rivers no longer do anything. Just pound the unit with air and they fold. Used to be able to hold for a few attacks.
Rail repair does not slow anything down like was hoped. Rail was still built all the way to Moscow by winter.
Russian air was...okay but I think disbanding and making more armor is till a better option for them. I do like slowing the Germans but honestly you get to fly once maybe twice and you have lost more than 50% of your air due to inteceptors...impossible to avoid them as much as you try. I guess you can suicide fighters to make the Germans use them against those but won't work for to long. Might have to try that.



Again the biggest issue is testing.
It just takes to long to get to test and you can test.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Soviet army is smaller than the German army.
Soviets are at 45% manpower so can not even build without making weak units.

Yeah I have already told this here:
fb.asp?m=5110101

My biggest problem is not 1941 but 1942. I would like a real Red Army to fight with and finally hold at the end of 1942. Germans have enough corps to hold all the front line from Leningrad to the Caucasus without using the minors (Italia, Romania, ...). And, USSR has barely enough armies to hold the same frontline without any possibility to have reserve to contain a breakthrough in their lines. This is my main complaint.

As for the testing, why don't you participe to the beta team?

Or alternatively, strong players may do their best hotseat game and save just before starting Barbarossa. This save game could be then used as a reference for testing any patch modification.

[stjeand]

I asked about beta was never approved so here we are.

I was pondering putting together a scenario where Germany, Italy and Russia get all the PP up till July 40 and build everything from there...
But it is a LOT of work to mess with the scenario to make it close to what a 39 - 41 would be like.
I may still do that but few if anyone appears to want to help.
NO offense to anyone just most people I have spoken to only want to play approved scenarios. Well then it will never get fixed in my eyes.
Putting in a minor change ever 2 months if it does not help you wait 2 months for the next one.
I don't blame Alvaro, he only has so much throughput.


And it is 42 now and the Russians are dead. They will be forced back to the Urals before the winter...and doubt they can hold them since their manpower is down to 40%. They don't make enough manpower to build a unit so it is clearly over. They are unable to build units due to this even receiving over 400PPs a turn.

And to be honest...they have lost a little more than they historically did...so something does not make sense.

[sveint]

Boost Soviet production and manpower by 25% and maybe we start approaching balance.

[sveint]

I'm not only playing stjeand (he puts up a good fight). My other games as Axis... it's a walkover.

Honorable mention that France+BEF is really rough for inexperienced Axis players now. Anyone who spams panzers and neglects the air force risk failing to take France in 1940.

[redrum68]

A full BEF commitment to France I think can stop most non-expert players and is probably the best strategy for the Allies to win right now.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: sveint

Honorable mention that France+BEF is really rough for inexperienced Axis players now. Anyone who spams panzers and neglects the air force risk failing to take France in 1940.

Yes, balance is good now for France 1940. No problem with this. The only problem is in Russia.

[ncc1701e]

What I really don't understand is why USSR is so understrength. In the manual I see a reference to this book: When Titans Clashed. I don't know which version Alvaro has, but in my Revised and Expanded Edition, I can read the following page 82:


From the moment the war began, the War Commissariat began a process that produced new rifle armies in groups or waves over a period of months, which more than compensated for the number of existing armies the Germans destroyed (see Map 5 and Tables C, D, and E in the Appendix). These included fifty-seven Soviet armies formed to compensate for the twenty armies destroyed or disbanded in 1941.


All this in 1941 and 1942, this is summarizing everything. In the game, this is just IMPOSSIBLE.

Put more reserve infantry armies in the deployment queue or increase PP for USSR.

[Nirosi]

A full BEF commitment to France I think can stop most non-expert players and is probably the best strategy for the Allies to win right now.

The fact that the UK can still put 11 or so corps in France of which 2 or even 3 can be mobiles is still game breaking. No matter the forces the German has, it will be close to impossible for average players and very hard for most others the moment a single small mistake is made.

[stjeand]

It is going to be tough for me...
Last time I ran into Hadros he had 11 corps...I failed to have enough forces for 41 Barbarossa...
I think I lost 4 corps...and casualties were 200+...

I think sveint put that many in as well as the entire UK airforce and I suspect I will lose a few corps if I am able to even get through.


NOW I am sure people will say well you can recover but you won't have adequate forces for Russia...Perhaps that is best?
In my game with Hadros I could not even take Yugoslavia because I took France last weeks of September.
Yugo fell early 41...

I never lost a game doing an all in BEF. The worst I did was kill 1 armor corp, a paratrooper and 2 german large corps. And France fell in late September.
But losing armor is crippling.
NOW keep in mind it is one thing if you are playing KNOWING that there will be an all in so the Germans build a ton of LC and paratroopers and just land in the UK...but normally you do not know...so you do your normal.

How do you fix it?
Nerf the UK? No...

You force the UK to garrison their island with a certain amount of forces or they lose PP.
All ports must have a unit.
London must have a full corps. Multiple southern cities must have a full corps.
Same in Africa...

The French fleet should be stuck in the Med...or Italy joins the Axis early.
NOT that an early Italy would be good for Italy but more air is painful for the Allies.

[stjeand]

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

A full BEF commitment to France I think can stop most non-expert players and is probably the best strategy for the Allies to win right now.

The fact that the UK can still put 11 or so corps in France of which 2 or even 3 can be mobiles is still game breaking. No matter the forces the German has, it will be close to impossible for average players and very hard for most others the moment a single small mistake is made.

As the UK once I had 3 armor and 2 mech along with 1 French armor and 6 Infantry corps.

BUT that was pre-good air days. Now not sure what I would do.

In fact against a few inexperienced players I was able to take out the entire german armored army...so all that was left was infantry.

[stjeand]

NOW I did notice that a LOT of the Russian manpower centers are forward...so they will be hurting even in a normal Barbarossa...
I found that strange.

In mine I suspect the Russians before the end of the year will be down to less than 20 MP produced. So an army every 2 turns, while Germany gets 120 MP every 6 months so they can build twice what the Russians can.

Perhaps just need to find the perfect Russian builds...

Personally...I have not.

[sveint]

A large BEF is not a panacea. You're basically conceding the BOA for the time being. You risk getting most of your units destroyed vs a powerful Germany in full supply. Worst case the Axis can completely neglect garrisoning the west and send all their troops east for Barbarossa.